Painted vs Unpainted in Tournaments

[Chemgrunt]

I understand that offical tournament rules and standards may be a bit off in the distance but I wanted to see what forum members thought about this issue.

GW events have painting requirements but they are usually only recomendations at events for games like Rakham's Confrontation and Privateer Presses Warmachine.

My question is where does Darkage fit in?

[prclimber]

Personally, I always play with painted miniatures even if it's just a friendly game. If it doesn't have completed paint on it, in my book it's not fit for tabletop service. I'd like to see those that I play with have painted armies but I don't mind too much if they don't. My group around here does a good job of painting things, most all of us play with fully painted armies.

[punkrabbitt]

I am the Paintign Nazi for my group. I will only play with fully painted kodels on matching themed terrain and I expect my opponent to do the same. I think Warmachine tournaments with their bare-metal half-assembled models are a travesty to the hobby.

[Chemgrunt]

I think Warmachine tournaments with their bare-metal half-assembled models are a travesty to the hobby.


Thats pretty much how I feel about Warmachine too. In frinedly games I have no problem with unpainted minis but for tournaments and other events I just feel that there needs to be a higher standard. These days though this seems to be a minority view in the tabletop miniatures world.

[Wappellious]

OK, I suppose I am a taaaad bit biased here :oops:

However, I must say that there were times when I did show up to play Blood bowl with a silver horde or even a pimer horde :lol:

Of course, I have also gone so berzerk as to make entire stadiums for all my teams.

In a tournament situation, I lean towards requiring painted figures (nothing fancy, though). If you are in come sort of official tournament, having half-assembled figures would tend to detract from the experience.

Besides, when I paint my minis, I try to do something distinctive with each one, so that one mini can be distinguished easily from another. Nothing like waiting around while someone tries to figure out which of his minis is which. Or, worse yet, when you ask him what you are going up against and he says: "Oh, wait, that's not what I said it was, it's really this.." and so on.

That gets even more painful when you are working in a situation were the game has a time limit. Sometimes I wondered if people did that stuff on purpose.

I do understand that it takes time to paint figures (believe me!), and that life can get in the way of painting time :wink: Friendly games can be much more relaxed. That is, unless you are in my gaming group :?

[DA_Magpie]

Not that I go to tournaments etc. but if I did it wouldn't really impress me to see unpainted minis.
As for friendlies here are my rules -
Fully painted: absolutely.
Proxies: go right ahead.
Coins, bottle tops, unused bases with post-it notes saying things like

[DA_Grafter]

Well, I can't speak for other games, as some of them require literally hundreds of miniatures, but for Dark Age, all you need is a handful of miniatures to start playing, a typical 500 point force is like 10 humans or 4-5 trueborns plus a bunch of slaves. Nothing that cannot be painted with a couple of seatings. I am not saying paint everything to studio standards, I certainly can't paint that well, but if you are playing a miniature game, you have to have some basic skills in painting. So, if you ask me, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone to play Dark Age with unpainted miniatures tournament or no tournament.

[AWu]

i am against unpainted banning

ive saw how it works
and especialy to a not very popular game like DA

i explain situation with Konfrontation boom here
there were a lot of turnaments (ewery week)
there were league played
and each event gathered 20-30 people

and then there was only painted armies rule impelmented
and
everything stoped

it was nothing mayor
model had to have 3 colours on it

but turnament scene died almost instantly
and its rebuilded even now - as the events i am talking about were 2 years ago ;/

moral:
in each mini game there are people that dont care about painting their minis
but likes tpo play
and there are super painters who prefer painting ower plaing
and group of painter/players

but making painted requirement eliminate non painters, and painter-mostly - rarely plays
group of painter/players could not be big and decisive enough to keep flouorishing turnament scene

PP make IMHO very good move in alloving unpainted and unassembled minis
becouse its encourage both new players and only players to participate in turnaments

i am personaly painter/player
and i prefer to play with painted mini
but plaing with unpaintd is always better than not plaing at all

[Kyle]

I had an unpleasant experience at a Warmachine turnament when my opponent was opening a blister pack and super-glueing his models together as the round was suposed to be starting. All sso he could use the newer, biger, more powerful models, of course.

I think at a bare minimum a model should be cleaned, based, and primed before use BUT I hate to turn anyone away. I think the carrot is usually better than the stick. It might be a good Idea to do something like play a 450 point battle with 50 bonus points for a fully painted army. That should light a fire under a few butts.

[Shinobi]

Official DA events should use painted models only.

However, I have no real problem with people using assembled and based miniatures for friendly games or when they are just starting out. Its when people play with a pair of legs, blue-tacked to an upside-down base, this p!sses me off. At least assemble the bugger! :roll:

[DA_Grafter]

I am not saying turn anyone away or ban them from tournaments, it is just unreasonable to play with a unpainted army considering how little effort you need to put in to get a DA army going. I can see a few additions here and there unpainted. But playing against someone with a unpainted army really takes away from the whole experience.

[Duskland]

For tournaments I'm a fan of painted armies but in friendly games it's ok.

Maybe a rating system with force list, good sportsmanship and paint quality sections?

[saevus]

It takes me about 4-9 hours to paint a DA miniature. Although I don't see it happening, it would suck if there was a tournament near me any time within the next couple of weeks.

There's a few questions for the nature and ethics of the hobby that need to be asked. First off, does the hobby rely of painted miniatures? how important is game play on it's own? And then there's the retailer. A lot of stores require painted miniatures (some times even for casual play) so it creates a better image for the games they carry. In essence they are using the customer for advertisement, which should be up to the stores.

Admitedly it's different in tournaments when it's mostly to make the experience more pleasant for the people who do put a lot of time into painting. This hobby wouldn't be very attractive if at least most of the players didn't put some effort into making it look cool.

[punkrabbitt]

If people don't want to paint miniatures, they can go play ASL :roll:

[Chemgrunt]

Miniature wargamming is not just a game but a full hobby. Its been that way for decades. When you buy miniatures that are unpainted and unassembled it is beacuse both need to be done to produce a finished model. Its not that you cant play with a model that is only assembled, its just not complete.

There is nothing wrong with pre-painted miniatures games but those are game pieces ready to go out of the box and are part of a different type of gamming environment.

I really dont think that requiring miniatures be painted for major events (like tournaments at conventions) will negativly impact the game. GW has had this requirement for a long time and their games seem to do okay.

[saevus]

In essence it relies on both it's aspects, but the game systems used for miniatures that require assembely and painting tend to be more complicated and dynamic than those that require pre-painted miniatures (with one or two exeptions). It's hard to just tell people who don't want to paint to switch over to what I see as a watered down playing experience.

I'm guilty of playing devils advocate with this topic before though. I've argued that if you don't have the time or skill to paint, then I do. For a fee of course.

[Chemgrunt]

In essence it relies on both it's aspects, but the game systems used for miniatures that require assembely and painting tend to be more complicated and dynamic than those that require pre-painted miniatures (with one or two exeptions). It's hard to just tell people who don't want to paint to switch over to what I see as a watered down playing experience.

I apologize if my post sounded like I was saying that people who dont want to paint should play pre-painted minis games. I didnt meant that at all, just that the two types of games are fundamentally different.

However, I also think that people getting into tabletop miniatures games should understand that there is more effort involved than the pre-painted mini games. Also, I am really talking about tournaments and big events. In casual games unpainted works fine. I do it too when trying out a new unit or character, but I would never bring an unpainted force to an event.

Given that the basis of this game is Brom's artwork I think it would be a shame if it didnt emphasise painted models.

[Pr0fane]

No worries, Chemgrunt. We all have our opinions and you are definitely welcome to voice yours. There is no right or wrong in this discussion, only perspectives. Thanks for clarifying yours.

[Malignant Lettuce]

I enjoy painting, and would play with a painted force, however there are a lot of people out there who don't paint for a variety of reasons, e.g. they don't have a lot of patience, they feel their painting is so bad they'd rather not do it, they play other games and want to prioritise that, and so on.

I'd also rather see tournaments with all painted forces, but I think this would drive some people away. In the case of Warmachine in my area there is usually a massive increase in number of games being played as people get hyped up about upcoming tournaments. Most of these people don't have fully painted forces. Now for Dark Age I would imagine the same would happen - if these non-painters could play.

How about running two types of tournaments? Unpainted to encourage people to come out and meet new opponents. This should also increase the interest in tournaments. Then run some all-painted tournaments. Hopefully this should encourage people to get painting or miss out on every second tournament?

Painting prizes are also a good incentive, however the same expert painters tend to win the prizes and the less skilled painters know they will never win so they don't bother.

Oh, and unassembled miniatures should never be an option! *shudder*

[Pr0fane]

Well, unofficially, I would say that miniatures need not be painted for tournaments. Afterall the tournament is about gaming, the one facet of the hobby. However, these events should also have a painting competition to cater to the 2nd facet of the hobby.

Agreed, for tournament play, in my opinion...a minimum of primed miniatures. No legged bases. That is the one aspect that I agree with Evil Empire about, WYSIWYG for tournament play.

[punkrabbitt]

Well, unofficially, I would say that miniatures need not be painted for tournaments. Afterall the tournament is about gaming, the one facet of the hobby. However, these events should also have a painting competition to cater to the 2nd facet of the hobby.

Touche' :)

[Malignant Lettuce]

I'm puzzled as to why people think primed miniatures look better than unprimed? Is it just a case of black or white blobs looking better than silver blobs, or is it because they look like they are in the process of being painted soon?

I personally wouldn't want to use primed miniatures (or half painted) as people inevitably pick them up, knock them against things, etc, and you get greasy fingerprints, paint chips, etc all over, which make it harder to get them painted later on. (We have a notorious greasy fingers spectator who appears at our club from time to time - at which point those in the know hasten to hide all sourcebooks and miniatures that can't be kept under constant supervision).

[Pr0fane]

Quite simply, the reason I say primed is two-fold;
1) makes any conversion/greenstuff less obvious and
2) photos. The shine/reflection from unprimed minis makes the battlefield pictures less appealing. But again, that is an opinion.

Although your point about the greasy fingers is a valid one.

[Malignant Lettuce]

Quite simply, the reason I say primed is two-fold;
1) makes any conversion/greenstuff less obvious and
2) photos. The shine/reflection from unprimed minis makes the battlefield pictures less appealing. But again, that is an opinion.

Although your point about the greasy fingers is a valid one.
Ah, yes I see your point there, especially point 1. although I'd say photos of black primed hordes look pretty bad as well. :wink:

Johanna

[gunslinger]

i will just stand up and let it fly


i hate wishy washy fence sitters that can't figure out what they want.. painted or unpainted.. in a tourney, i see no reason for not painted.. if you don't paint, or don't like to paint, or just plane are allergic to paint and want to play tourney.. pay someone to do it or don't show up..

if your painting sucks, who the hell cares.. you put more effort into than the guy that just primered it and called it good.. i give more respect to the guy the paints poorly than i do to the schmuck that glues it and primers it and stops... just plain lazy if you ask me and it blows.

tournaments are not for everyone. and especially not for those who are too lazy to paint..

i think my painting sucks just for the record, but i will be damned to hades if I am gonna show up to a tourney with an unpainted army.. blech.. show some pride in your game and paint it..

[prclimber]

i think my painting sucks just for the record, but i will be damned to hades if I am gonna show up to a tourney with an unpainted army.. blech.. show some pride in your game and paint it..

Pretty much my sentiments exactly, I think I can't paint very well at all and I hate to paint at that but I do it cause I think a poorly painted army looks better then metal or primer. I'd rather put myself through the torture and have the satisfaction of a fully painted army then sit there and look at and play with an unpainted one.

[DA_Demorney]

tournaments are not for everyone. and especially not for those who are too lazy to paint.

playing heretic now :)

hey dude, do you mean I should stop writing now and paint instead ?

haha

(wasn't honest here, normally I'm to busy to attend to tournaments)

[gunslinger]

playing heretic now :)

hey dude, do you mean I should stop writing now and paint instead ?

haha

(wasn't honest here, normally I'm to busy to attend to tournaments)

burn the witch. to be honest i wonder how i get anything done, as i have my doggone wings spread in so many different directions i feel like kool-aid mixed with too much water.. just too watered down with no flavor.. blech..

[saevus]

I'd like to know what people have to say about a dilema I've come against a few times.

As I stated previously, I take a very long time to paint. I really do hate even showing up for a casual came with any unpainted models, but I've spent multiple years painting some of my armies, and I would have to paint at a lower standard, some thing totaly refuse to do, to bring a fully painted army to a game or tournament.

While I don't think I'll be having this problem with Dark Age even if I am spending 4-8 hours on each miniature, this gets to be staggering when I'm faced with 100 beastmen or Tau, even if they are only taking me 2-3 hours per regular infantry, and 3-10 for leaders, vehicles and really big stuff.

There's more than one reason for not having an unpainted army, but I have to admit it still looks bad while playing, and detracts greatly from the experience. Plus no matter how well your army is painted, you're still not going to get a best painted army award if you have even a few unpainted miniatures.

[punkrabbitt]

i will just stand up and let it fly

<snip>

show some pride in your game and paint it..

Rock on, brother!

[punkrabbitt]

I'd like to know what people have to say about a dilema I've come against a few times.

<snip>

you're still not going to get a best painted army award if you have even a few unpainted miniatures.

The trick is to learn to paint faster. Either hang out with your local speed painter (in my group this is me) or check out http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/armypainting/ these guys have some great speedpainting tips and there are links to some of my Dark Age painting articles I did as part of the monthly contests the group runs.

[saevus]

Trouble is that every time I try to rush painting I end up sacrificing much of the quality of the paint job. The better I've become as a painter, the longer it takes me to paint, which makes sense to me but I do realize that this isn't always the case with painters.

I'd be interested to know how long it takes some of the pros to paint a miniature normally.

[Wappellious]

It's hard to say, really, since I am never working on one mini at a time.

Usually, I am working on dozens, if not a few hundered, at the same time.

There are certain times of the day when I do only prep work, filing, ppinning, green stuff, basing, etc. I have figures sitting here that have been prepped as long as a few years ago :shock:

I try to gather minis together in groups that have similar flestones, for one thing. For example, if I have a bunch of humans that need to be painted, I will do the fleshtones all at once. That could be as few as 3 or 4 minis, or twenty. It really does save time!

The same goes for bases. I normally paint a bunch of bases at the same time. For instance, I painted 14 of those Dragyri ice bases all at the same time. While it seemed like it took forever, it did save a few hours at least.

It used to take me at least 5 days to paint a basic human sized mini back in 2003 (and it looked nasty compared to today!). These days, I could probably paint the same figure in a few hours, and it would look infinitely better. Having painted thousands of minis now in a relatively short period of time, I just learned shortcuts.

I also have the advantage of being able to draw upon 25 years of 2D painting experience. A lot of the techiniques I am using now are based in my more 'traditional' art training. :wink:

One way to save time right off the bat is figuring out how to get nice shading without having to do 10-15 layers of shading! That's how I used to work. I can get better results now in just 4-5 layers. Obviously, that's a huge time-saver 8)

[Cain]

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not saying turn anyone away or ban them from tournaments, it is just unreasonable to play with a unpainted army considering how little effort you need to put in to get a DA army going. I can see a few additions here and there unpainted. But playing against someone with a unpainted army really takes away from the whole experience.


Yes it does take effort, but it's a labor of love...I agree painted is the way to go and it just looks cool to see two/three well dressed armies on the table top.. :)

[Wappellious]

I have always liked painting much more than playing, since I am renowned for my ability to make the worst possible rolls at the worst imaginable times :D

However, I may have a shot with Dark Age, since I have a mystical ability to find the 'one' on any die, whether it is a 4 sider or a 500 sider bowling ball :wink:

At least when painting is frustrating, you stick with it and see the results, as opposed to watching your army get pulverized due to 3 or 4 bad turns with the dice. I prefer arm-wrestling to deciding results! :lol:

[Shinobi]

I have always liked painting much more than playing, since I am renowned for my ability to make the worst possible rolls at the worst imaginable times :D

However, I may have a shot with Dark Age, since I have a mystical ability to find the 'one' on any die, whether it is a 4 sider or a 500 sider bowling ball :wink:

OK, this is where I stand up suddenly, with arms outstretched and shout "My long lost brother!"............. coz I'm the local version of the "ONE" roller :shock: ...........its actually very sad, because no-one lets me stand near them now when they roll dice, its my "ONENESS" Aura, it affects others too when I'm too close......... its lonely........ :cry:

[Wappellious]

wow.. it's too bad that you are in a different hemisphere! 8)

Think of what it would be like for both of us to be at the same gaming table... we could finish off a game of blood bowl in about 20 minutes, since all our turns would end on the first roll.

Our RPG characters would be killed in 5 minutes by pixies.

However, I must admit that when I was working on my baseball strategy game, it was a 3D6 system where rolling 3 1's was not always bad. That was an accident (I needed the strong statistical curve that could be modified more easily than a percentile system), but given my reputation for rolling so low, I was accused of 'customizing' the game to my die rolling tendencies!! :shock:

My wife can attest to the blood bowl championship game where I rolled five consecutive ones, becoming so frustrated (to put it mildly) that I threw the dice out the back door of the store. They landed in a yard across the alley.

When she went out to look for them, she discovered that they were both sitting in the grass.

Yes, you guessed it. They were both ones. :roll:

[Shinobi]

wow.. it's too bad that you are in a different hemisphere! 8)

Think of what it would be like for both of us to be at the same gaming table...

Actually dude, both of us at the same table would be the only way we could ever roll high dice.......... the whole "two negatives make a positive" thang!!!!

But Wait, I have proof:

Here is a thread from my LGS forum.

http://forums.cjb.net/wolfsgameshop-about459.html

Look at Question 9 on the Quiz..... (I'm Scott by the way), and then look at what people have selected in their posts for Question 9.......... I'm that bloody popular!!!!

[vintagemustangs]

Painted; It is half the fun!!

[Wappellious]

Imagine the possibilities!

If you and I were to ADD our rolls together, we could be guaranteed of a two every time! :lol:

My name is Jim, BTW... crazy nickname :?

Yes, there is one player in our group who has what we call the 'Golden Horse shoe up the ass' syndrome. He does not make every roll, but if the game is on the line, and he needs a six, it will happen. Every time. That happened in all three of our championship games. :cry:

Hell, it even happens when we play Nuke War :shock:

[number9]

Playing at Gencon in their first 1000 point warmachine tournament after spending 14 hours the previous day completing all my painting for my own force; I was supremely disappointed and disgruntled to draw a fellow in my first round that had an unassembled pair of legs on a base proxying a completely different model still in its blister. Half the army was pewter, the other half was primer with some basic washes on some skin and cloth.

That experience completely soured me forever after towards warmachine. The rest of that day I only fought one completely painted force and it was against the guy I had travelled there with who had kept pace with me the 14 hours the day before.

Tournaments are a showcase. They are a living advertisement for the game and its models. I feel any company running an official event owes its participants and its product the best face it can put forward, and that means fully painted requirements in my book. The fact alone that people on this forum noticed and disliked the lack of fully painted (or even fully assembled) models at Privateer's event proves this to me. Passersby remember. They want to be inspired. They want to take a closer look. Pewter draws few second glances. The gamers turned away by painting requirements are hopefully made up for by those spectators that say "That looks hot, I want to be a part of that".

I will only and always play tournaments with fully painted and based figures. I expect the same from my opposition. If this is not the case, I likely will not return to the event next time it comes around.

If that makes me snobbish, so be it, its my money and time after all.

[punkrabbitt]

Rock on, Brother number9!

[Kyle]

After reading number9's post I want to throw this out there. I think there is a BIG difference in a "tournament" on any given Saturday at the local comic book or game store and going to an annual event. By its very nature a tournament at a con should be something special and held to a higher standard. This should be even truer of one of the big world class events like GenCon. We should expect more than the local colleges gaming clubs con. Part of this is just the visual level of intrest for attendees. I mean, the whole point of miniatures gaming over ccg's, board games, or chit and hex wargames, is that minis look really good!

[number9]

Yes, there is a marked difference in my mind between local smaller tournaments and larger more national ones, just as there are differences between those utilizing a standard "corporate" or "official" format and those utilizing a customized or personal format.

Does the following seem the most reasonable approach to most?

-Flagship tournament (Sponsored, organized, or assisted by parent company) at a large venue. National attention and appeal. Gencon, Salute, Origins, Historicon, etc...
Fully painted forces absolutely required

-Regional tournament (Sponsored, following flagship format) at a medium sized venue. Statewide attention and appeal.
Fully painted forces strongly encouraged, or expected, but not required

-Local tournament (Sponsored or not, following flagship format or not) at a small venue. City/county-wide attention and appeal.
Fully painted forces not expected or required

Fully assembled forces without proxy goes without saying in all tournaments.

[DA_MrSota]

:idea: It is a statistically proven fact that Painted Miniatures win more than unpainted/primed ones. :idea:

[Wappellious]

I can vouch for that!

I had a lizardman blood bowl team that had three horrible losing seasons prior to being painted :cry:

Once fully painted, they had 3 amazing seasons, with a combined 31-3 record, and two championship games. :shock:

[Malignant Lettuce]

-Regional tournament (Sponsored, following flagship format) at a medium sized venue. Statewide attention and appeal.
Fully painted forces strongly encouraged, or expected, but not required

-Local tournament (Sponsored or not, following flagship format or not) at a small venue. City/county-wide attention and appeal.
Fully painted forces not expected or required

This does make sense, however how are you going to differentiate between the two above? Are you thinking in terms of the way the event is advertised, or would you include points for painted armies or painting competitons in the Regional event to try to increase the amount of painted armies?

[Malignant Lettuce]

I can vouch for that!

I had a lizardman blood bowl team that had three horrible losing seasons prior to being painted :cry:

Once fully painted, they had 3 amazing seasons, with a combined 31-3 record, and two championship games. :shock:

...But my Lizardman team is painted and they never win against the unpainted teams (or the painted teams for that matter)! :(

(the painted Orc team on the other hand, are much more successful)

[gunslinger]

this is how we did local tournaments for 40k back in 2nd edition times..

on time for game 1 pt, fully painted and fully based 3 pts, partially painted or based 2pts, primered and or not primered 0pts, sportmanship 1 pt (this was awarded by a show of hands.. in other words, over 6 games there would be 6 people who could vote yay or nay on sportmanship per person.. if you had 3 ormore yay votes you received 1 pt.

so 5pts were available for you and your army.. after that it was victory points based off 100pts.. so the 5 pts wouldn't be a big swing in a 1500 pt game as you max total could be 20 pts.. but, if the game was close, it would push you over the top for the win..

you were always encouraged to paint you army .. and in most cases, there were some that would paint it for you.. but in those cases you still received 0 pts cause you didn't paint it.. and if you pay for an army to be painted and claim it painted by yourself, you are very disturbed and not turstworthy person.. i have run into many of the latter that claim a paint job even though they put no brush to mini.. sad if you ask me.. very very very sad..

[Wappellious]

now that I think about it...

Not only had I painted a whole chaos dwarf team, I had also sculpted a coach figure and built an entire stadium for them. The stadium was populated with dozens of crazed penguins who threw fish guts at opposing players, fired giant snowballs from a cannon, and also painted themselves in team colors.

All this was to no avail, however, as the Juneau Icebergs had one deplorable season after another!

That was due to me not having the slightest clue how to play such a team, I think :?

Onec I started playing 'test' games using all the other races, my eyes were opened, and things turned around with the Lizards and my Orcs (imagine an orc team averaging 4 TD's a game!) :shock:

I believe I saw something in a thread here in the forums which mentioned the idea of playing each DA faction to learn how to counter any possible tactics. It sure does work! That is, if they are all painted 8)

Sorry... :wink:

[dragonlady]

you were always encouraged to paint you army .. and in most cases, there were some that would paint it for you.. but in those cases you still received 0 pts cause you didn't paint it.. and if you pay for an army to be painted and claim it painted by yourself, you are very disturbed and not turstworthy person.. i have run into many of the latter that claim a paint job even though they put no brush to mini.. sad if you ask me.. very very very sad..

So for those who can't or don't participate in the painting side of the hobby, you are damned if you do, or damned if you don't.

"oh I won't play you, your army isn't painted!"

"oh, you didn't paint your own army, come buffy, lets go elsewhere!"

These attitudes have always what has disturbed me most about paint nazis!

They could care a crabs butt about your reasons why you cant or don't participate at the level they are able to. And because you can't you are a lessor person!

I agree that there should always be a reward for having painted figurines. But it should always be seperate from the Play of the game. It has no place in how well you did in the tournament and if you won!

If I didn't paint it, or I paid someone else to paint it, they I should be in a PAINTING contest.

All Tournaments should also have a painting contest to reward and encourage those that do! But don't exclude me from the tournament just because I can't!

[number9]

This is my last little bit, because I'm just being self serving at this point. Apologies.

-In general; the better a game looks (when its already built on solid mechanics) the better the total experience for all involved.

If I could always play on superbly detailed terrain, with and against superbly painted figures, I always would. Given the choice I would *never* choose less. Would anyone? This represents an ideal. My free time is so generally limited and valuable to me that I want the best experiences I can afford and create, I think most of us would want the same.

Painted armies generally make the time spent gaming better, and seeing an opponent's reciprocity validates our own commitments to that end.

Painting requirements for wargames at the highest level encourages everyone to aspire to greater degrees of completion and excellence of experience within themselves. Isn't that what a tournament is really all about? I know I am not going for the bragging rights or the prizes thats for sure.

[gunslinger]

you were always encouraged to paint you army .. and in most cases, there were some that would paint it for you.. but in those cases you still received 0 pts cause you didn't paint it.. and if you pay for an army to be painted and claim it painted by yourself, you are very disturbed and not turstworthy person.. i have run into many of the latter that claim a paint job even though they put no brush to mini.. sad if you ask me.. very very very sad..

So for those who can't or don't participate in the painting side of the hobby, you are damned if you do, or damned if you don't.

"oh I won't play you, your army isn't painted!"

"oh, you didn't paint your own army, come buffy, lets go elsewhere!"

These attitudes have always what has disturbed me most about paint nazis!

They could care a crabs butt about your reasons why you cant or don't participate at the level they are able to. And because you can't you are a lessor person!

I agree that there should always be a reward for having painted figurines. But it should always be seperate from the Play of the game. It has no place in how well you did in the tournament and if you won!

If I didn't paint it, or I paid someone else to paint it, they I should be in a PAINTING contest.

All Tournaments should also have a painting contest to reward and encourage those that do! But don't exclude me from the tournament just because I can't!

let me answer these individually. we are talking tournament where you know the rules before hand. so if you choose not to paint, you also choose to take a disadvantage.

in a tourney, you will not see someone walk away from an unpainted army if that is part of the ground rules..

as for painting.. if you pay someone to paint it, why should you get more credit than the person that put in their effort and does not paint so well? hmm, are you entering it as if you painted it? (that is dishonest and pathetic if you ask me) are you entering it as if someone else painted it (they should get credit here not you) you say you can't paint.. hmm, everyone says that at one point or another.. I used to not paint as well, i still don't thinnk my paint jobs are up to par with most, but dammit, part of the hobby of playing with table top miniatures is making them look cool. and painting is how you do that.

these are just my ideas and thoughts. you don't have to agree at all, i just hope you take some time to think them over..

i won't ever force someone to paint. and in local gameshops, i have no worries about painted forces.. but in a tournament with set rules and guidelines, i expect you to keep the same guidelines that are set up.. nothing more or less is expected of that..

[Malignant Lettuce]

I'm not so sure about the 'did you paint it yourself' criteria.

I've painted an army for another game for a friend of mine. It's not that he can't paint, but I did it for him as a gift as I'm a better painter than he is and I enjoy it. Should he be penalised for the fact I did this for him? Should he have to buy a new army and paint that himself? Technically (if the case with this game was the same) then I would have done him a disfavour.

I agree with you in theory, for example if someone can't be bothered painting and pays someone else to do it. I just don't think rules like this can always be applied fairly, and it might be better to say an army has to be painted or not, plain and simple.

I still think there could be a split for tournament purposes. Some all painted, some not.

[Kyle]

I think the "Did you paint it yourself" is crap. Here is why.

Everybody likes doing slightly different stuff in this hobby and some guys specialize in conversions or in terrain. In various local groups I have often painted units for buddies, who in turn were making and painting the terrain, or making substantial conversions on models whic I or someone else eventually painted. A good terrain guy adds a lot to the overal gaming group. The best terrain guys I know tend to never get around to there own model troops. When we did Warhammer siege it was hard to agrue that the guy who built all the custom war machines and hoarding on the castle walls wasn't contributing to the overall game.

[Malignant Lettuce]

I am very much in favour of rewarding painted armies instead of penalising (or banning) unpainted ones. Painting should definitely be encouraged, I much prefer playing against a painted army as I'm sure most people do once their own army is painted. It really adds to the look of the game as well as giving the army 'character'.

This is why I think holding unpainted and all-painted tournaments would be a good idea, especially if the all-painted ones are often small points-wise as this will encourage the players from the non-painted tournaments to participate in both if they can. Also people who don't like to see unpainted armies can stick to the all-painted tournaments. Would this not keep everyone happy?

Alternatively nice prizes for painting are always good. To encourage people to paint (who don't stand a chance of winning) I've found it's been useful to give out a small prize to a random fully painted army.

[gunslinger]

we are talking tournament here and standard hard and fast rules.. you have to draw the line in a tournament or else you will get.. what about.... crap all daylong..

in a tourney where you are the player who knows the rules.. you can choose to go or not to go... if you don't like the rules set up.. stay your ass home.. if you like them, go and have fun..

i have been invited to tournaments that have rules i didn't like and hey, i kept my 50 dollars and stayed home..

either way, i will agree to disagree and move on. y'all have gone about 30 different directions from the original post..


I think the "Did you paint it yourself" is crap. Here is why.

Everybody likes doing slightly different stuff in this hobby and some guys specialize in conversions or in terrain. In various local groups I have often painted units for buddies, who in turn were making and painting the terrain, or making substantial conversions on models whic I or someone else eventually painted. A good terrain guy adds a lot to the overal gaming group. The best terrain guys I know tend to never get around to there own model troops. When we did Warhammer siege it was hard to agrue that the guy who built all the custom war machines and hoarding on the castle walls wasn't contributing to the overall game.

[Cain]

as for painting.. if you pay someone to paint it, why should you get more credit than the person that put in their effort and does not paint so well? hmm, are you entering it as if you painted it? (that is dishonest and pathetic if you ask me) are you entering it as if someone else painted it (they should get credit here not you) you say you can't paint.. hmm, everyone says that at one point or another.. I used to not paint as well, i still don't thinnk my paint jobs are up to par with most, but dammit, part of the hobby of playing with table top miniatures is making them look cool. and painting is how you do that.


Wow...I did not realize how "picky" folks could be regarding this matter. I agree with those that say - getting someone else to paint your army is not a crime, but taking credit for it is :x (especially if a prize is involved)Hey I see some of the paint jobs here and go "That's awsome, now you must die"...just kidding :lol: Unpainted well seems kinda like showing up to a football game without any equipment...seeing painted armies is half the fun :D ...in the end I find the painted figs here awsome and I use them as a guide.

[gunslinger]

cain, i think you summed up some of my feelings there..

but, yes, i do get a bit touchy about it.. especially when i paint someones minis for them and they enter them as say they painted them.. 'twas easy for me to go to the judge and correct that mistake, but the trust factor of the friend was severely damaged.. my ideas and views here go way back almost 22 years to be exact and yes some of them may be archaic, but once bitten, twice shy has occured on many occassion.. chalk it up to me doing this for far too long or chalk it up to me being too old to put up with rediculous excuses all around..

i guess i sum it up like this.. excuses are like ass holes everyone has one and they all stink... :shock: :twisted: :shock: :D :wink:

[punkrabbitt]

I don't care who paints the things... but if I make myself crazy trying to get this stuff done and further cause myself brain damage making the spiffy terrain for it to be played on, I don't want to see primer or bare metal (unless its like robots or something) after the time and injury I put into it.

[Cain]

Terrain.. now that is something which demands effort. I think everyone should at least try to build terrain once in their war gaming career...hey can anyone recommend a good site to visit to purchase some good terrain? Hey I'm at school right now and I don't have the "space" to create...so I'll cheat a little :wink: Thanks for any sites which you guys can think of..

[jugglingfool]

Well, I can't speak for other games, as some of them require literally hundreds of miniatures, but for Dark Age, all you need is a handful of miniatures to start playing, a typical 500 point force is like 10 humans or 4-5 trueborns plus a bunch of slaves. Nothing that cannot be painted with a couple of seatings. I am not saying paint everything to studio standards, I certainly can't paint that well, but if you are playing a miniature game, you have to have some basic skills in painting. So, if you ask me, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone to play Dark Age with unpainted miniatures tournament or no tournament.

While I respect the no unpainted for a tournament and I fully back that sentiment. For friendly games on game night I think that we will have unpainted minis a lot of the time. Personally I paint slow so it will be a while before I have a fully painted force to play with, but I will get them painted as soon as possible. Prior to any tournament with or without a painting requirement I make it my mission to not play with an unpainted mini.

By the way I love playing thread necromancy when I get to a new forum. Rather than starting a bunch of repeated topics I dig others up from the grave. Rise my dead threads rise!!!

[Pocket Hell]

My thoughts are if anyone would ever require painted models to play, you'll have less turn out from the exhisting players and people that would be new to table top gaming might pass. People that want to play the game would slap on some 99 cent acrylic just so they can play and the next discussion would be a required standard for the painted pieces.
Any retailer that needs to pay the bills would not enforce a rule restricting players from getting active in a game because the players pieces are not up to spec.
The best way to encourage someone to paint their pieces is to let them get their feet wet in the game and create a possitive experience that would result in a more active and involved player.

[bj]

Yay! a painting Nazi thread!!!!


Ok I am no means an official voice for Dark Age, but as far as demos and Rumbles my Outcasts better be using painted minis :roll: :D unless that is of course part of the demo, a paint and take, which is okay.

As for official tournaments DA is too young, relatively speaking, to enforce painted only. When we throw rumbles and, in the not so distant furture, tournaments we should not ever turn away a player because they do not have painted minis. I, on the other hand see no problem rewarding people with completed armies by giving out extra awards to entice people to get their armies painted. Painting should never, never, never be used as part of tournament scoring, that's one of my chief complaints about some other company's scoring system and the mythical "comp" scoring too.

[jugglingfool]

I was looking for a paint nazi thread and couldn't find an active one. So I thought why not resurect an old one. Thread necromancy at its finest.

[Osiris]

This is a really interesting question? On one hand I've witnessed ppl from another company turn away players from tournaments because their paint jobs were not 'good enough' <- the problem is that this discourages younger players, those not as talented as painters though they may be great gamers etc etc etc

The other argument is that by playing with uncleaned, unpainted models does it present a poor image of the product and game?

One solution I've noticed at the local gamming Venue out here is that a certain percentage of Minis have to be painted eg 50% +1 or 75% +1. Those models painted need at least three different colours or shades. It's a twisted compromise but surprisngly it works.

The other incentive is to have special awards for painted armies to encourage players to try the hobbyist skills. I've also seen those who bring painted armies be allowed an extra poinst allocation in choosing their armies.

For now my jury is undecided.

Cheers,

OSiris

[Rua Baineann]

I can understand unpainted models if the sculpts are ordinary, but, if you're going to have a high standard for sculpts then carry that through. Also painting adds to the story and realism.

[witchfire]

the type of army you play can influence on how easy an army is to paint

a skeletons army would need a basecoat of flat black & a quick drybush of
ivory to look presentable

an empire or Bertonian army would need much more

& that is why painting competition should be seperate from tournament
since a painting competition need less minis