If I could not play DarkAge then I'd rather play: [Archive]

gunslinger

03-09-2006, 07:12 PM

necromunda for me.. me and my spryr upper hive brats love to mess with the lower hive gangs and remind them who really owns the hive..

(on a side note bloodbowl was the game that got me hooked in GW stuff.. combat football.. what could be better)

for me individual consideration of members was key.. having played so many squad based and regiment based games i was tired of moving whole blocks of troops around..

In necromunda, i can arm my gang individually and move them about individually. terrain is more than must hills and trees in the way.. it is a 3 dimensional ramshackle of old architecture and between the pools of toxic goo and 6 story tall infrastructures, there are many places for snipers to hide, gangs to create a crossfire and the like..

the background was the kicker for me.. being an old school shadowrun player and liking the books about cyberpunk, necromunda had the mix of backwards technology and gang warfare that i was interested in.

on the plus side i could get a gang for about 30 dollars and the main box sold for 50 dollars.. and i was on my way..

necromunda is one of the reasons i was interested in DarkAge. the individual squads and the independant models.. it all makes for a different game than.. movement, shooting, combat, ok, now that i killed half your army, it is your turn.. i always liked the alternating movement..

Stunke

03-09-2006, 07:43 PM

That was the intro, as I was writing it, and side-surfing, I fell upon a game that seems to be connected to Urban War in some way.

Its called sabotage from all I can see, and features a simultanious turn system. Appearantly the game designers decided that you would order your minies to complete some certain task per turn, and this will be executed for both warring factions at the same time. The battle report in the link seems extremely detailed for a wargame and smells a bit like the author has taken some liberal measures in describing the way the game actually went down, or the rulebook includes an obscene amount of tactical possibilities.
The report reeks of tactical considerations, and atmosphere, and could be a really cool game, but I dont know the first thing about neither Urban War, nor this game, so I might be mistaken, they could be the same game, this on ebeing an extension, but it sure looks interesting.
It even got the Kevin-guy that sculpts for Darkage involved.

http://www.thefiguretrader.co.uk/pages/sabotage.shtml

Well to start the discussion I'll comment on oen of the games from the poll. Their pros and cons, their have and have-nots. (You get the picture.)

Today is Warhammer Fantasy Battles:

Warhammer fantasy is just played on too big a scale for me.
I cannot get myself to paint 100 models for a single army, and most of the armies I have played contained even more. The task is just tedious, and ruins all the time I could have spent playing. I have always been a game geek more than a brushthrall. This is partly due to my mathematical being overwhelming my artistic sides, but more on this later.

Once I got hold of the rulebook, the Arcane Magic expansion, the Chaos cards and so on, I had spent an obscene amount of time and money reading and learning the rules. I was 13 at the time and this was WHFB 4th edition mind you!!!
So for a 13 year old kid plowing through tons of foreign language, deciphering the meaning of all these hard phrases one by one took some time, and from the very first day I was utterly drawn in to all the plusses and minusses that would be added or subtracted anywhere, if only I was shrewd enough to exploit all the gaps that this game left me with.
Little cogwheels of mathmatics started churning in my head, and all day long i'd device evil plans and earthshattering tactics that would flatten all resistance before me :P
Play chaos, add 25% worth of Darkelf allies with crossbows and repeating boltthrowers and you got yourself a shooty chaos army.
Choose undead. CHOOSE the spells you want, give vampire "flight of Nagash", "hand of dust" and kill Emperor dragons on a roll of 3+.
This would go on wihtout end, and every day I came up with new ways of plowing down my opponents, untill I found myself at a fanatic convention where players had heard of me, even though they never played me, simply because my reputation for being an incredible tactical bastard would precede me.

Warhammer has (or had )that really grand feel to it, where unfathomably powerful heroes would smite all resistance from the back of a mighty mythological steed, and dark wizards would raise legions of undead to wage war on their former comrades. Rows upon rows of soldiers stand beside eachother, banded in brotherhood to repel an intruder from their homelands supported by countless comrades. The sky is dark with arrows raining upon your enemy, the earth trembles as you lead a brettonian unit of knight straight to the heart of the enemy galanty clad in the colours of their homeland and my GOD(!!!!!!) it is cumbersome.

Even though the games LOOK really cool at a distance, you just wait and wait for hours as your opponent brings his entire arsenal to bear on you. You roll bucketloads of dice, and it just doesn't get anywhere.
The statistical span of dicerolls is so short that I cannot believe that I never thought about doing it differently. Seriously, my guess is that 90% of warhammers dicerolls are either 3+ or 4+. Boooooooooring!
And the fact that you roll to hit, to wound and to save in order to kill a cowardly rat wearing armour just drains the gasoline from my mind and makes me want to go back to devising evil plans for others to pull off for me. The rules are too vague and are way too easily exploited by retards like myself who cannot turn the carnage-o-meter off, so the designers will have to create a maze of extra rules and additions to the first ruleset, simply because they neglected to make the game playable, instead of collectible.

A fully painted warhammer army sure is a sight to behold, and I will say without a hint of doubt, that no one has as much incredibly cool fluff and atmosphere as the world of warhammer. This goes for fantasy, as well as 40K and Necromunda in my opinion. The atmosphere is just incredible and catchy, but the game itself does not stand up to this feel, and this is where I choke. I still got my old skaven books lying around, 'cause the stories are just utterly creepy, but thats all i do with them... read them once a year.

So to sum up.

Warhammer fantasy battles biggest
Pros: Incredible atmosphere! The visuals and background stories are just superb.

Cons: The pace of the game makes me afraid of playing anyone above fifty as they might die before I'm done with my next turn. It's just not playable enough.

Thank you, and goodnight! :wink:

Stunke

03-09-2006, 07:52 PM

necromunda for me.. me and my spryr upper hive brats love to mess with the lower hive gangs and remind them who really owns the hive..

Heh, replace spyrer with orlock, and you stole my post. :wink:

But why is this game so great for you?

I can ramble on and on, but I have already done so for WHFB, and my head (and fingers) might fall off if I get into another spree. I just wanted to know what makes eveyone else outthere tick. I might even get my wargaming horizon expanded a bit, which is always nice.

m0nk3yb0y

03-09-2006, 08:57 PM

I'd rather play with myself :happyd:

I play Warmachine and Urban War, and many other games o.O Won't touch GW games, though I would like to try out Bloodbowl and Battlefleet Gothic.

Stunke

03-09-2006, 09:17 PM

Usually I wil quote pr0fane and say: Gimme the pictures. For this particular thread, I'm aiming for WHY?
Why is urban war so cool?
I don't know the first tihng about it.
The game "sabotage" I mentioned in the intro post, seems somehow connected to urban war, and I just found out its cheap as he** to get strated with, so I'm totally itching to know more.

MORE I TELL YOU!

How does warmachine and Urban War compare?
What do they have in common, what are the pros and cons?

m0nk3yb0y

03-09-2006, 09:35 PM

I don't think Sabatoge is related to Urban War. The Figure Trader is just in charge of producing terrain and extras (kind of like Forge World is to GW I think).

I haven't played much of Urban War, but I try to keep up on it. Being that it's a UK only game it makes it a bit expensive to get here in the states. It's skirmish level, fairly close to that of Dark Age. Average minis per side is somewhere around 7-10 I think. It's more of a traditional styled sci-fi game than Dark Age is. ie. the marine themed faction, the asian themed faction, cyborg themed faction, etc. (though the gladiators are a nice unexpected touch) Turns are a little odd from what I remember. You have 3 different orders you can give each model (they operate on a model by model basis, no units I believe). Depending on which order you give the model it limits what they can do. The odd thing is you give these orders at the beginning of your turn, hidden from your oppenent then reveal them when it gets time to activate that particular order type. Then I think models of that order type are activated based on initiative.

As for Warmachine, well if you haven't played it I suggest you do. I'm guessing it will take over Warhammer & Warhammer 40k as the most popular game before too long, if it hasn't already.

Stunke

03-09-2006, 10:37 PM

Yup I'm going to a warmachine game on sunday, but warmachine seems on the expensive side, just to get started, and Urban War is dead cheap compared to it!

The activation rule in sabotage works in the same way it seems, and there has been talk of introducing an experience system to Urban war too, and any kind of game where the models grow as you play are infinitely rewarding to play. The activation rule, just seems to be a really nice touch, a strategic element and something I have been craving for ages.(read the long rant on WHFB)
Darkage realy falls right into my lap, when it comes to my wargaming needs, but I can feel some of my old nerdyness coming back to me at the moment, and I just need to find out what the wargaming market looks like at the moment.
I cannot forgive myself for living in such ignorance for so long, believing that GW where the only ones out there. Heck I'm even meeting people who have been playing for years who still dont know about confrontation, warmachine or Urban war, the grip GW's got on the danish market is astonishing. So I just want to make sure that I have found some systems where i can find players, where I can afford the models, and a game that lets me do some strategy instead of hardcore numbercrunching.

Warmachine seems to be a real powerplayers treat, but I am actually trying to steer clear of that... for the moment that is. The possibilities of combining everything just seems to have no end in that game, and I am very excited about the demo I'm attending. I don't really know what to expect, since I appreciate the openmindedness Privateer Press is having about the game, unlike others, but this is a matter of company politics, not game systems.

Vaxillus

03-09-2006, 10:44 PM

I put myself down for Confrontation, because before I discovered Dark Age (I should probably say 'before I picked it up', because I discovered it when it first came out) I pretty much only played Confrontation. I still play it too. I'll try a summary:

Pros: First of all, easily the best miniatures in the business. Maybe not very durable, but the sheer quality is godlike. It does also have a few pieces of trash, but on the median, the line is miles above anything else, even our beloved Dark Age. It also has an extremely developed style, with flowing robes, swirls, and exagerated figures.

As for the game itself, it utilizes a card system to its fullest. The system allows for some very tactical dealings, since you have to comit your units to an order of actions. It also does an excellent job of solving the 'minmaxing' issue in an alternating activation system.

It also does an extremely good job of utilizing D6s but allowing for a lot of variety. The numerous abilities also provide for a lot of variation in the way you can fight combat. The number of abilities also flesh out the races very well. You won't find any two warriors who are alike in different factions unless they are supposed to resemble each other.

Cons: Modelling issues. As a contrast to the high detail level, the miniatures are flimsy and the bases are crap. They also require that you spend a long time painting them due to the detail and the way paint seems to abhor adhering to any of the little holes and indetations.

The shear complexity of the rules is also quite daunting. While I feel I can play DA right off the bat after picking up the book and giving it a good read through, I still do not fully comprehend Confrontation. The fact that it has a few translation issues doesn't help either (HIRE A NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKER FOR A FUCKING EDITOR ALREADY!). My inexperience also means that I get run into the dirt by anyone with even remotely more experience than me.

With the new edition, a few problems have also arisen. My favorite faction, the Dwarves of Mid-nor really took it hard, and are difficult to use unless you 'cheese' them out. It's being remedied, but not as quickly as I would like. The brutal wounding system is also a pain for expensive figurines, since they can get pummeled very easily by a few nasty die rolls. It's actually improved a bit with the new rolls, but bad luck (like mine) can really hurt.

The number of factions is also an issue. Since Rackham (the company that publishes Conf) releases the rules along side the miniatures, one faction can get a very powerful (but expensive) new miniature while other factions are still waiting for theirs. It's also hard to remedy an imballance or typo on a card. The release schedule also makes fans of a faction that hasn't gotten anything in a while quite whiny on the message boards (like me :roll: ).

Basically, it's a very tactical and deep game with a very slow learning curve and a few issues with releases and ballance. The miniatures themselves have good points and bad, but I'd say the good far outways the bad.

Stunke

03-09-2006, 11:13 PM

Its kind of odd that you mention it, 'cause I feel that characters get maimed in DA too, it's actually one of the things I appreciate about it.
But this can of course be a lot worse in confrontation, you are the one to know the best. Murtros is an exception. He'll crawl out of a collapsed building and start whooping some a** right away, unless someone torches him first!

Shinobi

03-09-2006, 11:14 PM

Warmachine seems to be a real powerplayers treat, but I am actually trying to steer clear of that... for the moment that is.

I've seen too many games ruined by powergaming in "Warmachine". Imagine playing a game where, just because you lost the first turn's initiative, you see half your army reduced to shrapnel before you get to do anything.............. I luv the Warmachine models, but I really HATE the game.

I voted for "Confrontation", since I play it a lot and have 9 armies........

Though I also rank "Dogs of War" very highly. Its a modern skirmish system that is sadly in suspended animation at the moment as people decide whether to continue with it or not. I used to be a demo-er for it and was also on the design team for the first planned supplement........... then the company decides to go belly-up........... and the system writer is still considering taking the project back on....... sad really, great system....... who doesn't wanna play SAS vs. Al Qaeda?????? :twisted: :twisted:

Another current fave of mine at the moment is "Flames of War". Have 2000pts of Italians WIP, and will be starting a Soviet Tank frce sometime soon.

The other systems you have mentioned..........

Necromunda - its been so bloody long since I played this.......

Urban War - just don't seem to have the enthusiasm for this

Sabotage - hearing mixed reviews about this, Kev White is doing some of the figures though 8)

Warhammer 40K - don't play this a lot though I am currently building a Space Dwarf army using Hasslefree Grymn

Warhammer Fantasy - again, don't play this much but am building a Vampire Counts army based on Spyglass, Heresy and GW figures (maybe with a few Hasslefree minis thrown in for good measure)

Stunke

03-09-2006, 11:23 PM

Artemis Black

03-09-2006, 11:31 PM

Urban War - just don't seem to have the enthusiasm for this

Sabotage - hearing mixed reviews about this, Kev White is doing some of the figures though 8)

How come there is no enthusiasm? Are you too caught up in all of your other project to venture into another, or isn't the game catching enough?

Hard to answer this without mentioning the company itself. I'm not interested in playing it because imo it's only a matter of time before the company yet again disappears up it's own backside. Every time it does it I imagine it'll be even harder to get retailers and distributors to carry the game than the time before and from most sources it was damn difficult for Urban War to get any play in the states this time around.

Sharae

03-09-2006, 11:53 PM

Dark Age is the only minature game I've ever really had any enthusiasm for. Granted I'm mainly intersted in the painting side of things for now (I WILL have a game with Mags one of these days...), if I wasn't then I'd be off MMORPGing (And when I say RP I mean RP, not fucking loln00bWTBWTSLFG. Argh! Mmmmm, the death of clarity and the imposition of an Owellian nightmare...).

Stunke

03-10-2006, 12:07 AM

Hard to answer this without mentioning the company itself. I'm not interested in playing it because imo it's only a matter of time before the company yet again disappears up it's own backside. Every time it does it I imagine it'll be even harder to get retailers and distributors to carry the game than the time before and from most sources it was damn difficult for Urban War to get any play in the states this time around.

Hmm, this indicates that punking you into getting your online store up and running might not help in any Urban War-kind of way :wink:

I didn't know there were problems with the company. Urban Mammoth? Did they go broke, and got refunded? I know this is about company policy, but any game with schizo owners might not be worth playing. Unless they went broke out of sheer lack of interest. Urban war seems to be on the incline in Denmark anyway. And I am frantic to find out which game suits me the most, warmachine or UW.

if I wasn't then I'd be off MMORPGing (And when I say RP I mean RP, not fucking loln00bWTBWTSLFG. Argh!

Lets pretend I didn't understand a WORD of that...

fo' shizzle!

Artemis Black

03-10-2006, 12:10 AM

Hard to answer this without mentioning the company itself. I'm not interested in playing it because imo it's only a matter of time before the company yet again disappears up it's own backside. Every time it does it I imagine it'll be even harder to get retailers and distributors to carry the game than the time before and from most sources it was damn difficult for Urban War to get any play in the states this time around.

Hmm, this indicates that punking you into getting your online store up and running might not help in any Urban War-kind of way :wink:

I didn't know there were problems with the company. Urban Mammoth? Did they go broke, and got refunded? I know this is about company policy, but any game with schizo owners might not be worth playing. Unless they went broke out of sheer lack of interest. Urban war seems to be on the incline in Denmark anyway. And I am frantic to find out which game suits me the most, warmachine or UW.

I'm sure that DA don't want me saying anything potentially dodgy on their forum so I'll be as basic as I can.

As far as I'm concerned Urban Mammoth is the 5th company run by the same people and all 4 previous ones have folded. I think I'm safe in saying that the last version - I-Kore - went bust, got bought by a friend of the people in charge who then promptly hired back the same people to run the business again. I'm sure someone will be along to correct me if any facts are incorrect :)

Stunke

03-10-2006, 12:13 AM

I can think of a single word: OUCH!
Well, I'd better hurry and buy everything I need to play the game then, before they run out of friends to buy the company back.

Art-de-Vivre

03-10-2006, 01:04 AM

I'm a Confrontation guy for sure !
I have one main army (Kelt Sessairs) which is more than half painted; another building up (Ophidians) as new figures are being released and purely by chance a 3rd army (I won't tell which one) which I haven't started painting yet.

I'm actually quite faithful to both DA and C3 going back and forth and haven't ventured into anything else yet (tried the odd Warmachine or Dogs of War game though).

My goal is (yeah, wishful thinking !) to be able to play both my favourite games with fully painted armies allowing of course for different tactical options. Well, so far, most of my fielded Sessairs are painted and same goes for my Forsaken; 7 Skarrd are done as well as I'm gearing up for the release of Exodus..

witchfire

03-10-2006, 01:43 AM

i play one game of each genre :

steampunk : warmachine /hordes
Fantasy : warlords
post-apocaliptic : dark age
sci-fi : still looking for one

Wayne Rogers

03-10-2006, 02:08 AM

Well...Im still trying to get in a game of Dark Age. Maybe soon.

But other games Ive played:

WH40K: I started off with this and still play it. There have been some improvements with 4th ed, but the system itself is flawed. I am working on a variation based on multiplayer 1st person shooters. Basically, each player gets 1 or a few models to represent him in a game of Capture the flag...complete with respawn points and powerups. Its a much more fun way of playing 40k

Mordheim: I like

Necromunda: I like...but I wish they did a REAL update instead of that half-baked one

Confrontation: I like alot. Cant wait for the Dogs of War campaign book

Warmachine: Played it some. Wish they had made a more dynamic turn activation system.

Infinity: This is what Im playing most recently. Its still in Quickstart rules, and I am eager for the full rulebook. It has the most interactive turn system of any game ive seen. Great models. Interesting manga-themed universe. Skirmish-level. D20

Shinobi

03-10-2006, 03:11 AM

Infinity: This is what Im playing most recently. Its still in Quickstart rules, and I am eager for the full rulebook. It has the most interactive turn system of any game ive seen. Great models. Interesting manga-themed universe. Skirmish-level. D20

Hearing good things about this game (especially from Artemis)........ will wait and see the full rules first, since the models are pretty pricey.

DA_Grafter

03-10-2006, 04:07 AM

sigh... and confrontation beats Necromunda, WTF LOL

steeldragon

03-10-2006, 05:55 AM

I voted WH40K... It seems I have fun with this game... I'm playing again (I'm recruiting converts for DA, they just don't know yet). I dusted off my old Space Marine army I've build for 2nd Edition and used in 3rd and discovered the marvelous possibilities of doing a personalized army for 4th. It's great when the newbies realize I do not field tanks at all... in fact I played today and had the pleasure of killing a Greater Demon of Khorne and a pumped out Daemon Prince in HTH with a squad of 6 veterans without losing a single model... the Greater Demon assaulted me first and was obliterated, then it came the Prince and was beated... great day. 4rd Edition also did wonders with the Assault Cannon... it's so good I cry of joy everytime I shoot them.

I must say I hate the Confrontation game system, both present and past. The unbalances are not minor in my opinion, the game down here has degenerated in who has the biggest and baddest monster... not really my idea of fun, even if my army (Tir Na Bor dwarves) has some big mean bastards and received a huge boost in 3rd... I don't feel there is strategy in the battlefield... there is strategy when you build your list.

Urban War is so close to Void, that I must like it. Alternate activations and a well thought system that really works is great. What I love the most is a stat called "calibre" that means how veteran is a unit (if we translate this to Dark Age a Bane unit with Calibre 0 is a normal Bane Unit, but another Bane unit with Calibre 1 would have an extra AP, 'cause it's better trained). Void ussually replaced my 40K fix and I really liked the Koralons, the old Broodmaster was great.

I miss Necromunda... my Escher, Goliath and Spyrers miss action... but life can't be perfect.

I would really love to see the Sabotage game system and get some minis... I'm a fan of Kev White. TFT has nothing to do with the company Urban Mammoth other than doing terrain and some resin models based on UM IP.

I'm interested in Warmachine... in fact I believe I have a 500 point army of Cryx that never has seen any action... there are no opponents for this game and I easily got distracted when planning my second Warmachine army (500 points of mercs)

I never played or planned to play WHF. Too many models, and as modeler I hate bows... they ussually lack arrows and strings. I also hate square bases. And I do not like the regiment formations... not a game for me.

Andres

DA_Magpie

03-10-2006, 09:07 AM

Right now I'm struggling to find time for Dark Age sadly. Not to say my eyes aren't open to anything else, just that DA is my first love in this field and I'm not seeing much of it, let alone a

tnjrp

03-10-2006, 09:22 AM

Don't feel particularly at home discussing other game systems on a system-specific forum, but that aside...

I've been rather involved with Infinity (http://www.infinitythegame.com) lately, and am looking to finally get some games of Starship Troopers (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=26) under my belt. Also continually working on something related to Defiance: Vital Ground (http://mj12games.com/defiance/), which I should prolly name my fave game, although I don't actually get to play that nearly as often as I'd like.

All this whiling away the time for one of my buddies to own up on his promise to get the Dark Age: Genesis book ;)

Stunke

03-10-2006, 09:41 AM

Yeah my biggest problem is the fact that it extremely hard to convert people away from 40K.
GW has got a real iron grip on the danish gaming community, and especially so in the area where I live. Many stores outright refuse to sell anything but GW, and the players themselves almost wince at the mention of another game!

A couple of diehard gamers are really interested in a demo game though, but something has come up the last couple of times (except for the ONE game I managed to pull off) but I think I can manage to create a four man gaming squad here. I hope to infiltrate a few gaming clubs too, but time will tell how I will pull this one off.

Having a demoteam would sure be neat, and I think it would greatly help getting sales started in Denmark, but I can't remember what the requirements are, and shoul I join the ranks of demo'ing, I will have to be a one man army, since my regular opponent can't find the time to head for cons every once in a while(busy man). This means I will have to convert someone before becoming a demoteam...sigh.
I have found out that some stores actually have a range of DA on the shelves, but no one really knows what the game is about, so I'm guessing sales are a bit slow.
I think Jenova was at a con or two, playing DarkAge but I can't remember how she fared.

Of course, you COULD just turn up at a con, sit down and start playing DarkAge all day long... someones bound to come by!

OOOOOOOOKAY back on topic!

Don't feel particularly at home discussing other game systems on a system-specific forum, but that aside...

Don't worry, the inevitable conclusion will of course be that Darkage will surpass them all :wink:

gunslinger

03-10-2006, 12:39 PM

stunke. you should have a talk with punky.. honestly most of our demo teams reserve a few hours at a store (preferably one that sells DA, but not required) you then contact the demo person (i think it is P0fane, at least it was last i heard) swag can be worked out etc.. at the demos i ran, when i had time to run them, i gave away the models i would get for running such demos.. anyways. a few painted armies, and an opponent is all that is required..

Vaxillus

03-10-2006, 05:07 PM

Figure I'll discuss some other gaming systems that aren't on the list, basically old GW fanatic stuff:

Mordhiem: Love this game. Has a great atmosphere and some pretty good rules, but gets really broken once a warband gains enough experience (Hotchland long rifles anyone?)

Inquisitor: Apart from the intolerable scale it can be fun. Unfortunately, it's too oriented towards non-compeditive play, which can be a problem when someone decides to take power armor or other such things. I wanna try shrinking the scale to 32MM size and using DA minis.

In response to steeldragon, I don't think that's true of Confrontation at all. If anything, I've found the new rules prevent a large creature from being unstopable. Again, it's hard to get a good enough grip on the rules to have a good game, but I've found experienced player have slaughtered my Evil Dwarf Cyclops many times. Of course, Tir-na-bor are far overdue for a facelift both ballance wise and model wise.

Ochaye Beers

03-10-2006, 10:17 PM

40K, but my God Bloodbowl is a lot of fun if you are in a club playing a league or tournament. Absolutely class.

Played some warmaster (WFB in epic scale) and that was pretty good, and easy to model terrain for.

Battlefleet Gothic is also very good.

Stunke

03-10-2006, 10:29 PM

Tell me about battlefleet Gothic then!
Lets get some game mechanics on the table, and discuss the living vitamins out of them!
(insert suitable phrase for highbrowed semi-nerdy discussion concerning wargaming rule structure)

Blood bowl is just perfect, because its a game of placement and extreme foresight.
You need to have all of your men ready for that succeful pass, but they need to be able to react to the failed pass as well.
The fact that placement is half the game, makes it even easier to stack the dice in your favor, so luck becomes less and less in important in this game, so you can actively work your way to victory even with semi bad dice rolling.
Some of the danish coaches on fummbl are really extreme, I cannot believe how few dice they have to roll, to beat the living dung out of someone. Too bad I'm a slow learner when it comes to watching things, instead of having them explained.

Artemis Black

03-11-2006, 01:21 AM

steeldragon

03-11-2006, 05:20 AM

About Confrontation balance problems I believe it's a matter of seeing the lists. Goblins with three Dai Bakemonos and a Troll... there is no way you can put down that combo with only your troops... you need a "monster" to deal with it... be it a pumped out character or the army equivalent of creature...

That's what I don't like... even if with Lothan, four Thermo Warriors and a Son of Uren I can pull the same thing... I do not like to be forced to field something if I expect to win a battle... I do prefer that my maneuvers on the battlefield to be the definitive factor rather than mt army composition.

Andres

Ochaye Beers

03-11-2006, 01:08 PM

Tell me about battlefleet Gothic then!
Lets get some game mechanics on the table, and discuss the living vitamins out of them!
(insert suitable phrase for highbrowed semi-nerdy discussion concerning wargaming rule structure)
The key thing is your ships have to move every turn unless you give special orders, so you have to anticipate how your fleet will brush up against the enemy.

It plays like naval combat, do you turn prow to face to limit damage taken, or turn broadsides to maximise your striking power? Ordnance like fighters and torpedoes are also used, and there are boarding actions too.

The Imperial navy has armoured prows and torpedoes so thay are good facing prow forward.

Chaos have more gun batteries and are faster, so they are best at sailing round your flanks or in between your formation.

Tau have massive amounts anti-ordnance turrets so don't bother sending bombers to strafe them.

Eldar are unbelievably hard to pin down and hit, but when you do, they crumple.

Orks will try to ram you at every opportunity, try to keep them at arms length, not easy if you are Imperial and you subscribe to the standard fleet tactic of closing with armoured prows.

saevus

03-11-2006, 06:43 PM

Any of them.

I have the supplies to play a lot of those games, but it would take some one from my "gaming group" to get a game going, which doesn't seem like it's going to happen.

Stunke

03-11-2006, 06:49 PM

That battlefleet gothic thing sounds really nice!

What are the drawbacks? Foolproof strategies, overpowered races, limited statistical scope?
Anything?

Ochaye Beers

03-11-2006, 11:23 PM

Drawbacks are that the miniatures are spaceships so not that difficult or varied to paint.

Terrain isn't all that varied. :lol:

The Necrons were once held as overpowered, but they are beatable IMO.

Strategically, the game is fascinating, as you cannot hold an advantageous position for more than a turn, as both fleets are moving, so you must plan your action ahead and anticipate the moves of your enemy.

Stunke

03-11-2006, 11:47 PM

I have this tingling feeling that games where correct positioning is a dominant factor will usually prove more exciting over time. You can always have some bad dice rolls and such, but from the moment you have to battle your opponent for space on the playing board, to win or loose tempi(chess term, or is it tempo???), things start to get interesting.
Chess, Blood bowl and GO all work this way, and have almost inexhaustable replay value.

dragonlady

03-12-2006, 10:11 AM

Its interesting that you have left out most of the Mongoose games from your list:

Babylon 5/ACTA - Space Ship Combat, its alternating activation by unit system, and fully fleshed out background is rejuvenating Space Combat gaming.

Starship troopers (SST) - Again fully fleshed out/popular background, utilizing a system that allows for reactive moves by units/miniatures versus your opponent, meaning that the idea of who goes first does not automatically win the game! 3 new support rulebooks in 2 months has revived interests in this game (Bugs/LAMI/MI) with another book being release next month (Skinnies).

As mentioned for gearheads Flames of War is taking a real smack at those interested in Unit tactics and vehicles.

(and yes I have all three of these and I'm demoing the first two in my area in addition to Warmachine/Hordes) (Someone has to offer new versions of drugs for the GW crack addicted public) :lol:

Artemis Black

03-12-2006, 10:20 AM

Its interesting that you have left out most of the Mongoose games from your list:

I think there was a reason ;)

dragonlady

03-12-2006, 11:40 AM

Its interesting that you have left out most of the Mongoose games from your list:

I think there was a reason ;)

Ouch!!

Catty Now are we?? :twisted:

Seriously, I thought this was all about a legit discussion. I've seen BFG discussed, WM, Confrontation (a very french thing), etc.

So what is it that makes certain miniature games make the list? (I'm not talking manufacturer here now).

Stunke

03-12-2006, 11:49 AM

The first thing a game need in order to be mentioned in a poll I created, is for me to know it exists!

I live in Denmark. Denmark for crying out loud!
Were 5 million people, and those few of us that play wargames are mostly 12 years old and hellbent on playing 40K exclusively!

So this little wondrous pond that makes up my birthplace, is the equivalent of outer space when it comes to wargames: A complete vacuum.

Tell me about Starship troopers then. I guess most of us saw the movie and thought: "Mein gott that was awful, but it would make a REALLY neat game!"

Put shortly: If anything is left out from the poll, its because of ignorance on my behalf. :wink:

prclimber

03-12-2006, 12:03 PM

Confrontation (a very french thing)

Was that a jab at the French? Not trying to be mean or pick a fight just curious as to the meaning behind that.

As to the topic, I'll go down the list of what I've played.

WHFB-Good background but the minis are sorely lacking IMO. Gamewise it really gets bogged down, and honestly I feel like it degrades into just building uber characters and units tricked out with as much magic crap as possible. Of the GW games I've played this is by far my least favourite...of all the wargames I've played that holds true actually.

40k-The first game I started playing. I've really lost interest in this recently, I have 1000 points of Tau sitting on a shelf collecting dust, I do plan on getting the new codex for them (even though I don't think they even needed it in the first place) and probably getting around to playing with them some more since 1000 points is really my preferred game size since I like to keep games small. I also have about 1500 points of tyranids that are all still plastic/unassembled that I really don't know what I'm doing with. As to the game itself, I find it very simple, and almost entirely devoid of tactics. It's pretty much all about building the most power gamey list, hoping for first turn, and then rolling as many dice as possible to kill the other guys. Scenarios go down the drain, especially in larger games, and so do tactics. Line em up and shoot or run across the field and hack. For that reason a good while ago I started playing a drop cadre which is basically the entire army deepstriking in with the exception of firewarriors who are in fish. It tends to make things at least halfway interesting but I won't hijack the thread.

Confrontation/Rag'narok-Very pretty miniatures, but some of them are just too over the top for me. I can't decide if I want to get into it or not, I have the rulebook but there aren't any players around here so it may not be worth my time especially considering how expesnive the minis are.

Warmachine-About the only game I'm actually playing since things around here have stayed away from the powergaming-ness of the WM community in general which is very good I think. I like the fact that it yields to quicker more action oriented games at a smaller level but I don't like how one unit can totally destroy the opponent's army or how feats can take you from the brink of defeat to just utterly owning the opponents army. I feel like anything that basically is just an "easy button" is pretty much lame and while yes I do pop my feat I try and win games more with tactics then a one shot nuke. I also tend to always play really themed lists with self imposed restrictions to go with the theme which means a lot of times my lists are extremely specialized and really do not take advantage of all that the army has to offer since I prefer not to powergame and just have a list that's fluffy, fun, I enjoy to play, and that due to the restrictions forces me to use tactics over dice/brute force.

I've looked at Urban War but am not really intersted....that Infinity game looks pretty interesting, I like the anime feel of and I'll keep my eye on it. As to which game I'd be playing? Honestly I'm not even sure since none of them really have me right now...I'll play small 500 point 40k games here and there or a little 350 point WM skirmish but I'm just not into much right now. I have a feeling once I finally get around to getting the DA rulebook and minis I'll have some good fun with that and with converting the players here to DA so we'll see how that goes!

Wayne Rogers

03-12-2006, 03:08 PM

Heh! All this talk about BFG and B5. My first wargame I got into was back after high school (in the early 80's :wink: ) I was playing Starfleet Battles. My friends and I were huge Star Trek nuts, and those little starships really caught our imaginations. I painted them with enamels and spay cans. We had weekend-long games with shuttles, fighters, and drones. Those were the days! :twisted: But OMG the complexity of that game was stupendous! :shock:

However...there was a variation of it that we liked best called the Starfleet Battle Manual. It came in a ziplock baggie, and had these cardboard tick counters you placed under the stem of the model, and then tied a long string to the stem. It had a simple, but exciting rules system, with power allocation, propulsive movement, simultaneous turns, and real targeting of the model in firing. In the firing phase you guessed which tick mark would hit your opponent (with weapons that could fire at that field of fire and range) and then everybody would pull the strings stretched over that preselected tick number and see if the string would intersect the enemy model. Of course, close firing was easy, but put a bit of distance and it was genuinely challenging. Size of ship model actually mattered, shooting at a bitty Romulan Warbird was tough. Also ship orientation mattered too. Shooting at a Constitution class cruiser facing you was harder than shooting at its side. You also had to be a good guesser at where the enemy would be turning and moving, since it was simultaneous, and you had precious few power resources to allocate to specific weapons...if that port phaser bank was powered up, but the starboard bank wasnt....well you better hope the movement goes the way you think it will! And you could do neat things with cloaking, like the model was not actually on the table, but its course was plotted out mathematically...so if you could visuallize well, you could plot out a secret course and then pop up behind that dreadnought and blast it! Fun times! That was the Starfleet game I loved best.

After I got married i got out of wargames for the next 15 years. When I returned there were all these games that were here! 40K and Crimson Skies and Frag and Chainmail and Mordheim. But these "next generation" games like DA and Infinity are looking top-notch!

prclimber

03-12-2006, 03:43 PM

Ah yes, good old starfleet battle, haven't played that gem in a good long while, but it's defintely still around, one of the teachers at my high school has a copy of the rules etc. and games happen some fridays after school.

Vaxillus

03-12-2006, 09:19 PM

Thanks Mr. Rogers (lol) for reminding me of Chainmail. I loved this game and was truly saddened when it died. I loved playing Nerul, and the game did a good job of taking traditional Wizards stuff and then giving it a good twist. I also loved the way they'd release and expansion every so often that wasn't too expensive but that allowed the game to evolve slowly as it came out. The new pre-packaged minis make me cry :cry: .

As for Starship Troopers, I've heard bad things about the game system from a friend who absolutely loves the book. Having an entirely plastic mini range done to pretty good quality is definately a plus, but it can't save a game system. Of course, I have yet to try the game myself.

Artemis Black

03-12-2006, 10:04 PM

Having an entirely plastic mini range done to pretty good quality is definately a plus,

It certainly is, now if only Starship Troopers could get one :P

punkrabbitt

03-13-2006, 03:10 PM

1) No worries about discussing other games, it's Mayhem na Miscellany in here. Just don't trash them for the sake of trashing them. Wrong: 40K sucks donkey dick and the GW guys should be shot! Right: 40K might be a bit buggy, but we tried doubling all of the weapon ranges and it worked pretty well after that.

2) When I'm not playing Dark Age, I am playing Confrontation, Warmachine, Hordes of the Things, DBA, Flames of War, Warmaster Ancients, Armati, and Wargods. No, I'm not going to elaborate further on that.

Freakbrain

03-13-2006, 03:17 PM

When not playing Dark Age I play Doom...that's it :roll: oh, yeah and I'm a computer game junkie

Pr0fane

03-13-2006, 04:14 PM

All joking aside, the only game I'd rather play OVER Dark Age is Naked Twister with Vida Guerra. :P

xeoran

03-13-2006, 06:34 PM

Might i suggest infinity (www.infinitythegame.com) which is ridiculously simple, lots of fun and great sculpts. However being manga-esque it lacks some deep dark feelings, hence Dark Age entering my life...(as if Wargods[looks like fun....go Olympus!], Confrontation[goddam rules but great minis], Urban War[fun though it loses to Infintiy and has crap mini support now], Necromunda[need I say more..])

Stunke

03-13-2006, 07:15 PM

Hi, and welcome to the DA forum.

I read the rules for infinity, and they DO seem nice and actionpacked, but It also looke like its one hell of a "face of roll" game.
I would think that getting an army comprised of someone with high BS and long range weapons will prove to be damn near impossible closing in on.
Any time you want to do something, you or your opponent gets a ARO, and you roll for the effect. Which seems to be constantly.

But the minies are really nice indeed, just that the whole range doesn't seem to be in place. And the idea with the hackers are awesome.
There are a lot of typos in the rules I've seen, but Aye captain, it sure does look sweet. Are there any official rules published yet? Last I checked they had a constantly updated quickstart list.

Im on the verge of starting out an Urban War syntha army, so I'm trying to sniff out as much info on the game as possible.

Artemis Black

03-13-2006, 07:23 PM

Hi, and welcome to the DA forum.

I read the rules for infinity, and they DO seem nice and actionpacked, but It also looke like its one hell of a "face of roll" game.
I would think that getting an army comprised of someone with high BS and long range weapons will prove to be damn near impossible closing in on.
Any time you want to do something, you or your opponent gets a ARO, and you roll for the effect. Which seems to be constantly.

But the minies are really nice indeed, just that the whole range doesn't seem to be in place. And the idea with the hackers are awesome.
There are a lot of typos in the rules I've seen, but Aye captain, it sure does look sweet. Are there any official rules published yet? Last I checked they had a constantly updated quickstart list.

I think it's supposed to be played on a Necromunda style table i.e. 'lots' of scenery.

Stunke

03-13-2006, 07:26 PM

Yup, and as soon sa you get your fantastic shop running again, you'll be shipping terrain to Denmark my man. But you'd better hurry, I've gotten a really great offer on Amera terrain, and mein gott I need some of those tall buildings!
*hint hint hint hint *

xeoran

03-13-2006, 07:31 PM

Thanks for the welcome....i was here, a long time ago (the old forum under the moniker 'Grigori') and its nice to be back!
Urban War while fun is in my opinion inferior to Infinity except in the idea of 'Cal' which I think is sheer genius. The art is fantastic and the magazine is very good, highly detailed and at

Artemis Black

03-13-2006, 07:37 PM

Yup, and as soon sa you get your fantastic shop running again, you'll be shipping terrain to Denmark my man.
hinthinthinthinthinthinthinthint

S why I'm online right now :)

I couldn't work yesterday, belated birthday celebration, so I'm stuck here tonight instead.

gunslinger

03-13-2006, 07:46 PM

2) When I'm not playing Dark Age, I am playing Confrontation, Warmachine, Hordes of the Things, DBA, Flames of War, Warmaster Ancients, Armati, and Wargods. No, I'm not going to elaborate further on that.

ermm, when do you work and when do you pay attention to those kids.. ? :wink: :shock:

Stunke

03-13-2006, 07:46 PM

xeoran: I have JUST finished Ghost in The shell 1 GIG, and i was SO drooling over the concept of TO camoflage.

You say you get new rules every 14 days. do you mean from the website? In their update file or are they emailed to you?

xeoran

03-13-2006, 09:10 PM

Website update. There are quite a few rules on there now...Rulebooks in May so look forward (some anal art too....). It is very much based around using LOTS of terrain. As in something ever 8" at the least dense. Think downtown Baghdad, Liberia, whatever. In particular the new rules limit your number of HMG's and the like. Much better. Its really good fun, download and try it with proxies. Half an hour is all thats needed.

Artemis Black

03-13-2006, 09:23 PM

(some anal art too....).

:shock:

xeoran

03-13-2006, 09:30 PM

OK, anl means really good where I am....not actual anal art, that would be pretty dman scary.....lets just say very good art! :D

Vaxillus

03-13-2006, 10:56 PM

Just since people are mentioning other games, I've heard that Rezolution is pretty awesome, though the minis are probably the worst I've seen. Haven't played it, probably won't (I'm a painter, so sucky minis are a problem).

As for Infinity, I'm waiting to play until the Nomads come out. I like most of the minis so far, but a few of the faces are just ugly. I'm sure it'll get better, but some of the Adriana minis are BARF! I'll prolly try it anyway though.

Also, I know that VOR is dead, but my local gaming store has an old discounted copy of the game box for $35. Should I pick it up?

Wayne Rogers

03-13-2006, 11:30 PM

Just since people are mentioning other games, I've heard that Rezolution is pretty awesome, though the minis are probably the worst I've seen. Haven't played it, probably won't (I'm a painter, so sucky minis are a problem).

I sorta missed the Rezolution phase at my gamestore EndgameOakland. I was introduced to it at last years Kublacon. Its a pretty neat game system, but the rulesbook and minis were rushed out the door too quickly. That and they were rather late in coming up with scenarios and campaigns, which hurt them with the fans. But there ARE many good sculpts in the Rezolution line. J Van Schaik is a very good sculptor, and now that they are relying almost 100% on him, the range is shaping up into a nice looking line. Its still hit and miss on some though.

As for Infinity, I'm waiting to play until the Nomads come out. I like most of the minis so far, but a few of the faces are just ugly. I'm sure it'll get better, but some of the Adriana minis are BARF! I'll prolly try it anyway though.

I play Infinity a lot. I like the Pan Oceana faction. Cant wait for the real rulebook, as right now the quickstart rules are obviously missing something. But what a dynamic system!

xeoran

03-14-2006, 11:02 AM

Yeah, I've heard some good things about Rezolution but as you said, hit and miss. If/When they sort the minis out i might well be interested.
Infinity does rock, incredibly dynamic. if i can just hold myself in to May.... :shock:

Actually having had another look at urban War it is really funa and the minis while nothing special mostly are really nice, solid and good sculpts. Easy to paint too. Simple rules and good fluff. I like it a lot, its just Infinity got in the way....Howeer now Urban Mammoth have sorted their problems out they seem to be going strong and getting good. In particular coming soon is Metropolis from them that will appeal to all Void players as its basicly Void with extras. Future lookks steady and good for them.

Stunke

03-14-2006, 11:12 AM

Just got my UW rules 2

xeoran

03-14-2006, 11:29 AM

Yeah, know what you mean. I play Infinity, Urban War, Necromunda, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic(thinking about), Wargods(just waiting fo Olympus), Rezolution(thinking about), Dark Age......
So much fun out there.... :D :D :D

gunslinger

03-14-2006, 01:27 PM

if i could just play seme few cheap games... bloodbowl, space hulk, and warhammer quest..

Pyrrhus

03-14-2006, 01:28 PM

I'm quite interested in the Wargods line - can anybody who has played it much give me some feedback?

I wanted to like infinity - but I can't get over the cost! ( Euros to CAN$ is not a winning propostion)

xeoran

03-14-2006, 08:21 PM

Infinity is expensive (even here in Europe) but the minis are really nice...

Havent played Wargods much though I like it, take a jaunt onto their forums the guys are real friendly! They'll help you out.

Kyle

03-15-2006, 12:31 AM

Wargods is basically Warhammer. Chris Fitzpatrick originally offered GW the figures as a new fantasy race and was rebuffed. It was only after he started his own company and started cranking out cool undead that the evil empire became interested. Seems people were using Chris' undead.

The big thing is the game plays like Warhammer with the exception that you put down action declaration makers on each unit, hero, or monster. These orders say things like hold, charge, move or fire. You put them face down and then flip em over.

xeoran

03-15-2006, 09:53 AM

Cool, thats helpful for me! Sounds good to me! Really I'm looking forward to Harbingers and such, that was the real attraction.

Ochaye Beers

03-15-2006, 10:24 AM

The big thing is the game plays like Warhammer with the exception that you put down action declaration makers on each unit, hero, or monster. These orders say things like hold, charge, move or fire. You put them face down and then flip em over.
BFG is like that except with order dice.

xeoran

03-15-2006, 01:15 PM

How is BFG, I mean to play it but never got round....

Pyrrhus

03-15-2006, 02:19 PM

BFG is the most tactically satisfying GW game I've ever played (and I think I've played them all). I'd defintely recommend it to anyone interested it that genre of mini games. The combination of constant movement and weapon effectiveness based on relative facing means you alays have to be planning at least a couple turns ahead.

xeoran

03-15-2006, 09:45 PM

Cool, I always liked the look but didnt want to spend the cash...these ne living rulebooks make it so easy though.... :D

Ochaye Beers

03-16-2006, 11:45 AM

And you can paint the minis up really quickly.

xeoran

03-16-2006, 12:53 PM

The Imperial models also look nice and imposing, that grand gothic look that GW strangely stipped from their Titans....

Cool, if i can find some cash I'll have to go see...

Tantrum

03-16-2006, 03:17 PM

I voted for warmachine,

Since I LIKE POWER PLAY!

Fantasies of crushing and tossing enemies always seem to do it for me.

Some of the posts about the other systems were pretty insigtful. You might note that certain GW games like Inquisitor and LOTR don't even rate a mention.

That company represents the history of this indutry not its future!

This poster also has time for Rackham. The concept for smaller games and more dynamic game play as evidenced in DA, WM (sometimes) and Confrontation is a winner. And those big army games, where the player who goes first can often win on turn one really suck at the level of GAME DESIGN.

The other point I would raise is that the online gaming universe is STILL IN its INFANCY guys! Give computer games another ten years with the kinds of design budgets they have and I think we will soon be painting miniatures for home collection only. Where machines role all the dice, the space for truly balanced rules and interactive play is unlimited.

Tantrum

Wayne Rogers

03-16-2006, 03:26 PM

Some of the posts about the other systems were pretty insigtful. You might note that certain GW games like Inquisitor and LOTR don't even rate a mention.

That company represents the history of this indutry not its future!

Hmmm...it could be possible. That GW has an outstanding part of the marketshare makes them a frontrunner....but the system for the games themselves are rather stale and flawed from a design standpoint. But its hard to deny they have a compelling universe.

The other point I would raise is that the online gaming universe is STILL IN its INFANCY guys! Give computer games another ten years with the kinds of design budgets they have and I think we will soon be painting miniatures for home collection only. Where machines role all the dice, the space for truly balanced rules and interactive play is unlimited.Tantrum

Nooo!!! While I DO like compuetr games...man cannot live on pixels alone. The tabletop gaming genre provides a community that cannot be virtualized. Rolling dice and pushing little pewter people across a table of terrain is more spiritually fulfilling! :roll: :wink:

Pr0fane

03-16-2006, 03:41 PM

I'll agree with Wayne on this. How old are Go and Chess? Yet their real world appeal is still there.

That said, remember the virtual chess game in Star Wars? It could happen. We might be 'modelling' our own players, but in software.

That's not to say that both cannot exist together.

Tantrum

03-16-2006, 04:05 PM

Guess i'd be in your generation,

I started with AD&D around 1981, and stopped playing games altogether for ages, but drifted back in more recently.

While its not diplomatic to blast GW too long in other peoploe's living rooms, I'm always celebrating new good things like DA, since they have a kind of purity in searching for the right rules, and striving for the best art and trying to make an honest business of it all! the energy is nice. Here and at PP too!

That other (now un-named) company really grates on the nerves with its culture of hubris and declarations of being the "best". But their hearts are only chasing the bottom line, and you can FEEL it. The rulers of that show are not gamers nor do they paint minitures, or have any kind of association with the gaming community. And they run their own culture, which has a corrupting effect on those whose livlihood requires obedience to the ledership scripts. I think its been put most succintly in certain page fives elsewhere.

Off the track a little.

Anyway, I am very new to DA and very excited to see cool minis, cool concept art, fresh energy and a bit of honest aspiration.

I will, get into this model range and system when I am able and suspect it will be something worth supporting, promoting and "spread the word" on.

Regards

Tantrum.

Tantrum

03-16-2006, 04:20 PM

And on market share,

I concede your paint. Hats off to that company some love to hate for founding and spreading the industry.

As I said the history is all theirs. But I suspect the future (they helped open) really will be open to any with a serious stake to claim.

In the scale of all industries, miniatures are small cookies. There is probably more spent in this one country (South Korea) on out of school teaching for kids than all sales of all miniatures in all countries in the world. Being small the industry will change due to smaller variations in conditions.

The new strength of competition, the (considerable since market is small)costs of production and the future prospects of some of that production later starting up in Asia, ......

May all lead to market conditions that totally blow GW out of the water. Consider the transfer of hobbyists and their precious money to PP in the last year alone and then consider what will happen if folk all begin to discover that DA TOO is better!

Hobbyists are a fickle lot. And this little survey with 0% preference for GW fantasy says a LOT!

DA has barely even been heard of yet. What happens if they are discovered and begin to reach the tipping point PP has in the last twelve months? GREAT!

If GW has to pull its head in and get its house in order, or rediscover a hobbyist friendly attitude, so be it! Good for us too.

I think competition has finally reached a decent level only in the last year or so.

So the real contest is just beginning!

T.

Pr0fane

03-16-2006, 04:40 PM

Very eloquently put, Tantrum.

Welcome to Dark Age, our little corner. Yes, I suspect we are of a generation, you and I. ;) It seems you've read some Malcolm Gladwell too.

You are correct in that we have no desire nor inclination to bash or in any way denigrate other companies. We have our niche and we like it. We are building and promoting this game because we love it. This is our community and we respect every one of them. Even Stunke. ;) They all bring something to our environment in one fashion or another and we heed them when we develop. We're not looking to erect another giant monument, just to have people like what we're doing.

Glad to have you here.

gunslinger

03-16-2006, 05:17 PM

liked your post tantrum.. didn't like your bashing..

everyone is welcome to their opinion, but when it is wholesaled and generalized to the point of .. well, i will just leave my comments at that.. we know now that you do not like a certain company..

i hope this won't be a recuring thread that you beat us about the head with..

Tantrum

03-16-2006, 07:14 PM

Ok,

I'll try to behave myself and stick to the positive'e here!

Take care all!

T.

xeoran

03-16-2006, 10:18 PM

Hello and welcome!
I dont agree about computers taking over. i for one will always play this way. Its the 'solidness' of a nice mini in your hand that makes this so worthy. Computer games are a little too like I'm a viewer not inside it. Also games cant allow nice rules, home rules, having a laugh to the degree minis can!
GW still has a big future in my opinion. It will lose out slightly but i bet they will hold on for a long, lon time. Name one other company with such good plastics, chain stores, devotees etc.

DA_Magpie

03-17-2006, 12:18 PM

The other point I would raise is that the online gaming universe is STILL IN its INFANCY guys! Give computer games another ten years with the kinds of design budgets they have and I think we will soon be painting miniatures for home collection only. Where machines role all the dice, the space for truly balanced rules and interactive play is unlimited.Tantrum

Nooo!!! While I DO like compuetr games...man cannot live on pixels alone. The tabletop gaming genre provides a community that cannot be virtualized. Rolling dice and pushing little pewter people across a table of terrain is more spiritually fulfilling! :roll: :wink:

Somebody (Steeldragon?) in another thread said that one of the most important parts of these games was the beer and Chinese food afterwards. I

xeoran

03-17-2006, 01:30 PM

Until they invent the internet Doner Kebab that is!

Artemis Black

03-17-2006, 04:45 PM

[quote="Tantrum"]If GW has to pull its head in and get its house in order, or rediscover a hobbyist friendly attitude, so be it! Good for us too./quote]

A 'hobbyist friendly attitude'? Seen many Warmachine shops where anybody can walk in and play Warmachine on any day of the week? I haven't.

The reason GW games get low votes on forums like this is because they are insular not because they are unpopular. They have 'many' of their own boards and hangouts and most people can't afford to play lots of different games systems unless they cost a small amount of money each. GW doesn't cost a small amount of money.

I don't like GW games, I find them too simple. However they are meant to be. I'm not saying they are bad, I'm simply outside their target market these days.

There's very little bad to be said about GW when you are comparing them to the companies that are on the poll above. The biggest gripe about GW is their prices and they certainly aren't the most expensive on that list.

Pr0fane

03-17-2006, 05:04 PM

I'd like to thank Stunke for starting a good thread of discussion. And also everybody that contributed to this discussion.

But I do want to remind everybody that Dark Age does not condone bashing of any other company, nor are we championing any other company. In that light, I'd like this conversation to head back to it's original intent; comparative qualities of those 'other' games.

This should not be a discussion of the merits and faults of GW. This is not censorship, I just don't want 'them' coming down on Dark Age with their lawyers & their accountants please.

Artemis Black

03-17-2006, 05:10 PM

This should not be a discussion of the merits and faults of GW. This is not censorship, I just don't want 'them' coming down on Dark Age with their lawyers & their accountants please.

It might have helped towards that end if you hadn't complimented the only person to 'bash' GW and asked us to stop talking about it after two people had defended them.

Pr0fane

03-17-2006, 05:39 PM

a) I complimented the eloquent post because it was not a rant nor a diatribe.
b) That post was 11 sentences long, only one of which was an observation, not a 'bash'.
c) Defending or bashing, my intent was to have the move discussion move away from a GW focus.

If you took my request personally, my apologies as that was not my intent. I was trying to moderate the thread and I feel I stated that intention clearly and concisely and without prejudice.

Artemis Black

03-17-2006, 05:55 PM

a) I complimented the eloquent post because it was not a rant nor a diatribe.

He was also the guy who started talking about the company instead of the games they make.

b) That post was 11 sentences long, only one of which was an observation, not a 'bash'.

Three posts, multiple sentences of bashing. That GW are the history not the future isn't an observation, trying to infer something from Warhammer not getting any votes in the poll and claiming they don't have a hobby friendly attitude aren't just observations either.

c) Defending or bashing, my intent was to have the move discussion move away from a GW focus.

I understood that and like I said, it might have been better had you not actively encouraged it when someone was saying something negative about them then closing the discussion down when someone was saying something positive.

There's little left to say about the various systems anyway and it's very difficult to just discuss games without talking about the comapnies that make them. It's directly relevant to whether you can actually get a game of one of those games somewhere.

steeldragon

03-17-2006, 06:47 PM

[quote=Magpie]

Somebody (Steeldragon?) in another thread said that one of the most important parts of these games was the beer and Chinese food afterwards. I

xeoran

03-17-2006, 09:55 PM

Well I'm not sure this is promotion/bashing of GW. It is an actual discussion of the pros and cns of the game.
Personally I love their fluff, think they have great art. I think their miniatures are often very good. Their stores are brilliant and many staff are good guys. In particular their stores introduce many to wargaming. They started me.
On the con side they are very nasty to many people (the infamous lawyer attacks.). Their kinis are expensive, often overpriced, the games mostly require huge costs (for say, two armies for me to play and one for introducing people I can follow Confrontation, Infinity, Dark Age.....etc, etc). Some staff are godawful. They can be very unfriendly, viewing customers as walking wallets. Too much marketing and WD is still very much a glorified catalogue.
That said I love many non core games. Necromunda, Mordheim. Heard great things about Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic etc. If they released a skirmish 40K game at reasonable prices I'd probably go for it.

Shinobi

03-18-2006, 12:13 AM

That said I love many non core games. Necromunda, Mordheim. Heard great things about Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic etc.

I have to agree here. The games of theirs that I enjoy the most are the 'specialist' ones.

If they released a skirmish 40K game at reasonable prices I'd probably go for it.

40K is a skirmish game innit?? :roll:

Also, for those who have any interest in 40K and RPGs, there will be a 40K RPG released early 2007!!!

xeoran

03-18-2006, 09:20 AM

I heard about the possible RPG and am mildly excited....could be fun or could be horrible.
As for Skirmish, 40K is more battle game than a sirmish . I meant dedicated skirmish.

Wayne Rogers

03-18-2006, 01:38 PM

As for Skirmish, 40K is more battle game than a sirmish . I meant dedicated skirmish.

Yea...I had always wished that GW would come out with a Necromunda-like gamesystem for the main 40K universe...One where we could take our neophytes and advance them into veteran space marines,... and our guardian Defenders could choose the Path of the Warrior and select an Aspect Temple to join and perhaps become an Exarch...and our young greenskin yoofs could prove them selves in battle and grow into big Boyz and Nobz. You get the idea. In my spare time I sometimes work on a homemade version of this, combining elements of 40K with Necromunda and Mordheim.

But I always thought it was a mistake for GW to only limit these skirmish games to sidebar settings in the GW universe.

xeoran

03-18-2006, 02:19 PM

Tis true...You can use Inquisitor for skirmish (strip out powerful leaders and it does work) but no points...
I think skirmish fits 40K. I've been on and off about a project featuring the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy in skirmish. But it aint offical so....

Racel

03-18-2006, 05:48 PM

"Other"

I have not found too many minature games that I like these days, so I revert back to board games to fill my gaming needs.

I own so many of boardgames that its never an issue of finding something to play, not to mention that wives and girlfriends are much more interested in playing some type of boardgame than they are in miniature games.

Jeff

Stunke

03-18-2006, 06:23 PM

Pr0fane

03-18-2006, 06:59 PM

...not to mention that wives and girlfriends are much more interested in playing some type of boardgame than they are in miniature games...
Why Jeff! You polygamous studmuffin you!

Stunke

03-18-2006, 07:57 PM

Congratulations!

It took exactly 100 replies to derail the thread, which by DA standards is really impressive.
I would therefore like to give ourselves a BIG round of applause, and wish Racel the best of luck with his little side entrepeneuring business :D

:clapper: :clapper: :clapper: :clapper: :clapper: :clapper:

Racel

03-18-2006, 08:20 PM

I'm having a damned hard time getting my girlfriend interested in Wargaming and/or board games.
I got the two newest editions of Risk from Avalon Hill, a couple of Reiner Knizia games, backgammon and a big ass chess game, but none of it grabs her attention. She's even read through the Darkage story, and watches me paint and make up scenarios, but I'll be damned if roleplaying games haven't got the best of her interest, and I dont do those! :(

Typically, I find that my wife prefers to play games in a party like setting with a reasonable mix of guys and girls. She likes games like Guestures, Apples to Apples, Pictionary, Crainium etc., but occationally we get here to do other more strategy related games. She likes Takal a lot and has her own copy of History of the World. She has also soundly stomped us at Shogun (Samurai Swords).

Sad thing is that she loves the Game "Worms" for the PC and the Xbox. not as happy with the new 3D versions, but will still play. She regualarly kicks our butts at worms and gloats over how badly she mangled everyone else's forces. She hates all the ultra violent games, but I guess that killing worms is a little more acceptable than people to her. Oh well, at least she is willing to play something . . . .

@Pr0fane,

Seems that Pr0fane has a very interesting way of viewing the world! I personally feel that wives and girlfriends need to be strictly kept apart to prevent one or both from doing you bodily harm. If you are in the position to have both together (I am most certainly NOT), I would suggest twister or similar for a good game choice. :D Personally, I have enough headaches with just a wife, the prospect of a girlfriend (or more than one) seems a little to expensive emotionally and finacially for my tastes. I will leave such endevours to Pr0fane since he definately seems more the type for such adventures than me.

Jeff

Stunke

03-18-2006, 08:30 PM

Racel

03-18-2006, 08:54 PM

We can only hope some of the forums women will chime in on this one.

Last time I checked, all the women on THIS forum were already tainted and do not represent the average wife or girlfriend's preferences. I do not mean to offend, but this is a game based on BROM. How many women attracted to BROM's art as well as wargaming would we consider "average". Just figure that the discussion generated would likely be biased unless some folks out there could get their non-tainted signifigant others to chime in on the dicussion.

Jeff

Stunke

03-18-2006, 09:14 PM

Well, even though I really hate soccer, I might still be able to tell frustrated women why (european)men are so hellbent on watching it 24/7.
Besides, AFAIK Sharae was severely punked into this by Magpie, so she might just not have lost it just yet! :wink:

Tantrum

03-19-2006, 01:51 AM

Hey Guys,

I'm really sorry that my comments twisted this conversation the wrong way.

Look: ALL the hobby companies have good models. So we can forget criticism on that line.

As for systems there are relative merits, and to my mind some of the more recently developed systems are showing the fruits of many years in getting the delicate matter of play balance right. Some systems have deficiencies.....

I'll look for a more appropriate place to air other grievances...

Tantrum

steeldragon

03-19-2006, 05:50 PM

Down here if you are not watching football (soccer) you are playing it... I even organized my friends sunday matches (yes they play two football matches every sunday one in the morning and one in the late afternoon).

I do not play, my skills are in my hands, not my feet... when I was a kid I used to play waterpolo, basketball and rugby... now I'm too lazy...

Good thing about football its that is always a great excuse to set up a barbecue...

With my girl friends (notice I splitted the words to avoid confusion) we ussually play Karaoke Revolution on the PS2... they love that game, in all its incarnations. I stopped trying to find a girlfriend who likes miniatures or other geeky stuff, if they do like them great, if not, well... we can do other kind of stuff...

Andres

Sharae

03-20-2006, 03:13 PM

Hmm, someone really ought to do an antropological study on women, and find out why so many don't like strategy oriented games.
Social games like Cranium and Pictionary seem to be more in their favour, but is this only related to the fact that you get to laugh at eachother more, or the fact that some women don't like actively plotting how to utterly ruin your opponents day once it's your turn again?
(Or simply because they do that to their husbands and boyfriends on a daily basis and need a break Wink )
We can only hope some of the forums women will chime in on this one.

(And that they wont fling too many shoes in the process.)

Let me tell you a story. When I was a little girl my brothers would play games like chess and Warhammer. I was not allowed to play or be involved in these games except on rare occations when we would play the hillarious we-wont-explain-the-rules-properly-because-you-should "Just get them" and-will-take-every-oppotunity-to-beat-you-gleefully-to-prove-we're-bigger game.

When people (almost always the type afraid of looking looking like they have no penis) do this to me in real life now they're lucky to lose just their shoe. Mmmm venting frustrated childhood rage.

And this is why I rarely, if ever, play strategy games against people (funnily enough I enjoy playing them against a computer). I can only think of one person (Mags, you sweetie) I have played stratagy games with (mostly chess and Star Craft) and not had this happen to some degree. Games like Cranium and Pictionary are easy to pick up, sociable and yes, easy to laugh at. It's not easy to laugh when someone has just desimated you in front of other friends at a game you've never played before. Let alone to resist the urge to leap over the table and throtle them. Bare grudges? Me? Noooooooo...

So if I happen to know how to play a game from solo experience and then play it against people who have done the above in different games to me (Gah! I hated halo for so long until I played it with Mags), I see no reason not to blow the shit out of them. If that game happens to be I-know-how-to-ruin-your-day so be it :twisted:

gunslinger

03-20-2006, 04:27 PM

I HAVE ALWAYS thought that different people pick up different games for different reasons.. (is that vague enough? lol)

what i mean is that my brother used to beat me up one side of sunday and down the other in logical games.. such as chess, othello, no, etc.. however, games of chance, such as, monopoly, risk, etc where dice were involved he wouldn't do so well..

in a gaming club in highschool it always seemed the girls were on a witch hunt to beat all the boys to prove they were better.. i never looked across the table to see if my opponent had breasts to then decide that being female i had them beat.. quite the opposite.. every opponent i faced was given the same respect until i knew they could beat me or that i could beat them.. i found that there were plenty of females that were smarter, and more logical than i. I also found many that weren't, but i never put a single foe in the.. hahah, "you are a girl therefore inferior", or "you listen to heavy metal and therefore not able to think clearly" or any other general category..

each of us bring unique abilities to the table.. some of us are very logical, some are very analytical, some are very strategic.. but at the end of the day, we should have fun in our games.. i really hate to see that young lady play the game with a chip on her shoulder, just to prove she is better, and i certainly hate that young man who plays the game trying to demean or degrade all of his opponents..

play fair, treat each other with respect, and follow certain common decency and you will find that we all aren't so cheauvanistic or so general in our placement of gender bias.. hell, i actually wish i had more female opponents.. the conversation is usually alot better..

Sharae

03-20-2006, 05:13 PM

play fair, treat each other with respect, and follow certain common decency

Exactly. When this occurs I have fun.

That and when I get revenge on someone who didn't do those things in a different game. For example:

A former boyfriend of mine offered to teach me how to play Halo. This involved me being shot/killed repeatedly and him laughing and saying "Whoops!" while I still hadn't figured out the controls. When I had enough to get a rocket launcher and manage to point it at him as he drove at me in a Warthog to run me over yet again and blew him to bits out of shere anger, he then said I was good enough so why was I complaining about being shot/blownup/runover/pistlewhipped and laughed at for about an hour afterward. "Don't you know how to relax?" He said. "You're taking it too seriously." He said.

After I had dumped him (he is still a flatmate) I started playing Halo with Magpie and our other flatmate, knowing full well he thought I had a thing for Mags. We played for hours and had lots of fun blasting the shit out of each other (And pleanty of "My my what a big gun you have!" type comments) after Mags had actually EXPLAINED how the game worked, while he sat seething in the corner. Mmmmmm sweet sweet vengence. :twisted:

He had this attitude to fighting games as well, but as I had practice and could actually beat him he mysteriously didn't want to play. I also used to have a policy of no violence toward boyfriend, as I am quite the martial artist and could badly hurt/kill someone. I have since abandoned this.

"It's just a game!"
"And that's supposed to be an excuse for acting like a total wanker? Not good enough. Welcome to real life consequences."
"Owowowowowowowowow!"

Be a nice, or at least reasonable person or I will hurt you ;)

xeoran

03-20-2006, 06:38 PM

Know what you mean, I remember my first two games of Halo....
In the first I was up against Gargoyles in pitch black. So I didnt know they flew. Didnt know where they were, what they did ...and I couldnt see anything. That was a blast... :?
Second time I was up against Jackals and nobody told me that their energy shields are impossible to shoot through. Joy. :?
That said I can now kill them more than they kill me. For some treason I have a virtual empathy with Shotguns.....and Grenades...! :D

I agree its annoying when you get beaten for not knowing the rules. So I learn them first....I prefer to play for fun than for slaughter. I've lost many a game through doing something as it was cinematic, cool or in character. Thats just my style. Helps that my grunts are generally very lucky (same with my brother, we're both awful with uber troops...my snipers are horrificly bad... :( ) So thats why I play friendlies. Sure Grudge matches are fun against long tie opponents (and testosterone bragging is enjoyable provided its in good faith)

As for beating nasty opponents...I just either boycott them or take them to size with the army list from hell.....