Game Design, Part 1: Troop Quality

[Agustine Nunez]

INTRO:

I have enjoyed miniture wargaming for some time now, but I have always wondered about how "one designs" the rules for a wargaming system - Dark Age, Warmachine, or Urban War, etc... How does one translate their ideas into a functional set of rules which provides the player(s) with a fast, uncomplicated, but realistic game system which reflects modern day, near future or SCI-FI skirmish combat.

The above question is fundamental, to both the war game designer and to those who simply love playing. In order to really understand the process involved in designing rules for such games there needs to be a starting point, or template to compare a given rule set; I have elected to compare the Dark Age rule set to a generic system which would work with most of todays settings and miniatures. This generic rule set is called F.A.D (Fast and Dirty, wargame rules for modern and SCI-FI combat), this system of gaming rules was created by Mr. Ivan Sorensen.

The rules in F.A.D are based on the idea that there are certain basic military principles which do not seem to change over time, for example troop morale, motivation, and basic ranged combat. If "we" assume, as Mr. Sorensen does, that the above are essential elements in war gaming design then a starting point can be established.

The first topic I would like to explore is troop quality. The following is a excerpt from F.A.D:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troop quality:
All models are rated depending on their training, skill, experience, competence and other factors. This is summarized in the units Quality level. There are 4 different levels:

Conscript

[Stunke]

You can get a quick answer from a fellow player.

I've recently stumbled upon Armies of Arcana.
This is a game system that lets you use any size models, and any models you like for fantasy wargaming. If the models doesn't exist in an existing armylist, the rulebook contains all the info you need to make your own soldiers complete with certain special abilities and the finished pointvalue.

This is really neat, as it lets people like me, create a mixed army of undead/ chaos warriors, but this is also its downfall.
Although the rules provide a slicker and more meaningful way of dealing with fantasy warfare than WHFB, which makes them great IMO, they are also mostly meant for friendly play, mostly because of human nature.

You see, once people find out that there are ways to tweak the units you have at hand, an arms race will often ensue.
In games like warmachine, everything is broken to begin with!
There is not a single unit in the game that hasn't been designed with a certain bastard-factor in mind, and even the most miniscule unit contains an unrealistic amount of power, that has to be utilised in the best way possible.
This means that it is not a problem playing warmachine, because everyone are on the same terms, getting the best out of the units at hand. You can't customise them, but thats fine, because the game was designed to force players to utilise the rulebook, and not the statlines to win.
In GW games, it could seem that a lot of the units were designed by people who prefer a flavour army over a power army, so when the GW game designers gave people the opportunity of min/maxing their units and giving them certain quotas of this and that, an intolerable arms race started.

At the local gaming club, we are playing warmachine right next to the 40k players, and the obscene amount of whining and bitching before each game begins is intolerable. Something unfortunate happens to a lot of games systems once players get all to much scope in which they can customise their units.
On of the problems might be that the GW design team, has tried different mesures to stop this powergaming from happening (sometimes pulling the other direction, but that is not what this is about) instead of just embracing it, and providing the players with some limited space in which they can operate.

Dark Age, I think, strikes a really nice balance.
The fact that the Squads at your disposal is somewhat set in stone, means that you are handed certain cards that you have to make the most of. The alternating activation system means that the strategies meant for this game is grander and more complex than most other game systems.
Now within a limitless enviroment, with limited capabilities you are free to mix and match as you see fit, but once the game begins, you are no longer counting on you support units to give a +4 on a hit roll, and some spell to ruin your opponents armour, you have to rely on statistics, planning, placement and luck.
Every unit has strengths and downfalls that you have to find a way of doing something about. A lot of games give players the opportunity of overcoming much of their units shortcomings before the models hit the table.
In Dark Age you have to play and plan well to overcome this.
It truly is a matter of trying to force your opponent into places where his own men will get in his way, find a way to spring that trap of shooters on hold, make a real ambush, think hard about what squad to activate next, because this one initiative roll might swing the battle in your favour, but only if you can FORCE your opponent to move that unit, that he really doesn't want to move.

The synergy in warmachine is necessary, because every model on the table is so damn tough, darkage doesn't NEED it the same way, because everyone is potentially dangerous, but the timing is often the most important aspect.

Thats why the tactics forums doesn't swell as fast here as the warmachine forum does, the mindset behind this game is slightly larger than that of PP and GW games. Things do not add up in +2 and -3, but placement, planning and timing does... and thats hard to ask about and put up in a tactics forum.

When it comes to urban war, I have to say that I've gotten very disappointed. Most things in the game are done on a 5+ or 7+ on a d10.
When you are playing a game on a scale as small as UW is, you need a bigger tactical scope on the dice. The d20 or d100 is a lot better for games with so few minies, you can tweak and differentiate much better this way.
GW games all work on d6, but thats mostly because everything is in such a grand scale, that it's alright. Getting hold of 20d20 might be a bit of an uneccessary problem too. It ruins a lot of the fun for the characters though, but its easier to get away with on a scale that grand. Problem is, they solved the character problem with a plethora of hideaous magic items that just pull them up and beyond what is acceptable too fast, so now they can do ANYTHING on 2+.

Oh, another thing about games that lets you have units on different levels of training is that the games's rules themselves usually have easily exploited holes that will make all conscript armies too powerful, or all elite armies too powerful. Systems that lets you have the freedom to make whatever you like, usually don't have equal limits on army construction.

(its been a long day. 'hope I'm making sense)

[steeldragon]

@Stunke--> Yes you did...

I believe that almost every gamer eventually tries to build his own game system... so I appreciate this kind of discussions... even if it's on the wrong forum :P

Andres

[gunslinger]

I guess i am one of the almost not group.. that is why i playtest. i find my ideas are way to scattered and way too many to put to pencil and paper. i just like to play.. if it is fun, i like it, if my opponent is a beligerant bastard, i probably won't like it.. i am pretty easy to please

[xeoran]

As an Infinity fan boy I would suggest their rules. What they've done is amde a game where everything is deadly to everything. Its so deadly the only way to survive is to hug cover, blast and run. What this does is force everyone to think about everything.

FAD are quite cool rules too.

That said in games with lots of ballistics have reaction rules, they rock!

Speed I find is also quite important, I find myself unable to get bothered with 3 hour games but half an hour to an hour is sweet, particually as that leaves time for payback.

[DA_Magpie]

particually as that leaves time for payback.

The importance of providing players with the chance for revenge should never be underestimated.

[tnjrp]

How does one translate their ideas into a functional set of rules which provides the player(s) with a fast, uncomplicated, but realistic game system which reflects modern day, near future or SCI-FI skirmish combatI could name names you should ask this question, as they have done basically that (subject to varying mileages, obviously), but the context of your (admittedly rhetorical) question is wrong... Dark Age IMHO does not have this type of aspirations (the resemblance ends around fast and uncomplicated). The designers may disagree.


Why did the the designers of Dark Age decide not to incorporate flexible rules for generating troop quality or the creation of exceptional units?To include any type of "flexible generator" is to invite disaster. Now I'm not saying that games with such systems are all distasters. In fact some of them are very good IMCO (I almost solely play scifi ground combat games in ca. 28mm scale -- just in case you want know). Nevertheless, it's not an undertaking to be, well, undertaken lightly. Usability and balance issues ensue. Game testing needs to be done in a different way from a "closed" game.

So my guess is that the DA team wanted to stick to doing the best game possible within the resource limits they had and didn't want to complicate the process by inducing "open" elements.

[Stunke]

I also think that customisable games tend to be very... vanilla.
Everything is this standard goon that does this and that, just like everyone else. Unless you're playing among a very dedicated group of gamers, you probably wont see a whole lot of distinctly flavoured units or armies.
Games like Dark Age hands out very certain abilities that has to be managed properly, so you have to wrap your head around it, instead of just customizing something thats easy to play with.

[Agustine Nunez]

I also think that customisable games tend to be very... vanilla.
Everything is this standard goon that does this and that, just like everyone else. Unless you're playing among a very dedicated group of gamers, you probably wont see a whole lot of distinctly flavoured units or armies.


O.k, but what do you think about the "Troop Quality" (TQ) idea :

Conscript

[Stunke]

Well, it works for heroclix!

But again, I think a lot of people would be tempted to just pull out as many high grade troopers as possible and then try and make the best of it, rather than gritting their teeth through some gaming experience.

Urban War has the calibre system, and frankly... it's, well uhm.
It's not really... It can't, *sigh*

Okay: IT STINKS!

Maybe it's just that one game, but Urban War is terribly two dimensional.
Half the stuff in the game is accomplished on 6+ or 7+ on a d10.
If you're higher caliber you get to do all sorts of odd stuff... like use a flamethrower three times!
Dammit that myrmillo is SO borken its unbelievable.
It might be able to pull off an experience system, somewhat along the lines of necromunda, but I don't think that has the beginner/advanced thing going either, so I don't think of it as such.
Necromunda has a much more fluid transition from noob to expert so your gaming develops along with your soldiers.
Thats a far shot away from the CAL 0, 1 2 3 goons of UW.
Too bad, 'cause I think the game has some great promise, a somewhat nice activation system and a cool setting, but it just severly lacks on a few points that makes it a 2 out of 5 star rating on my part.
But mostly the odd modifiers and the damned single d10 is just... dung. *cough*

edit: idiocy, misspelling, self-contradictions, tpyos, and stuff

[Agustine Nunez]

Hum...well I was not expecting the review on UW ( by the way I used to play alot of VOID, but could not really get into Urban War, though I do like the Junker-Gladiators!!).




Maybe it's just that one game, but Urban War is terribly two dimensional.

First what do you mean by the above? Second, do you feel/ are you saying creating a method to assign troop quality is a mistake in terms of gaming mechanics?

[Stunke]

I'll post something long and exhaustive later today, for now you get a REALLY interesting link.
There are a lot of wize words hidden within the pages of this site: http://www.sirlin.net/

Mostly about computer game development, but I guess mnost of it holds true for mini games as well.

[DA_Demorney]

Second, do you feel/ are you saying creating a method to assign troop quality is a mistake in terms of gaming mechanics?

Huh, gonna kick some words in here :)

In my opinions it is neither wrong nor right in general, it's just a question of what conceptual goals you are following.

You want a role based and flexible system which shows the development of troops? Then it's right to use it.

You want a streamlined game that emphasizes game flow and fast playability? Then I doubt it.

In Dark Age the quality is woven into the troop definition, so a Buzz Blade will always be of limited "quality" compared to Strikes for example. Not to say there aren't elite Buzz-Blades (like the Charity troops) or even elite Strikes (could be possible). If you look close enough at the skills and abilities of the DA troops you will find the difference between vets and rookies. But yes, we're keeping these variances between troop types, not to further differ within the types.

This will definitely lessen the amount of game time you have to spend for flipping thru books or searching for game stats, as well as calculating the dice rolls. On a tactical level this is something we opted for to get a fast playing game.

Anyhow, if you would ask me whether we think about what happens on a strategic level things are different. And yes, this means campaigning. But I won't share my knowledge about what Dark Age does or plans here now, else I get shot by my fellow developers. :)

So this should be enough for now ...

@Stunke: cool link, thanks for sharing

[Agustine Nunez]

Anyhow, if you would ask me whether we think about what happens on a strategic level things are different. And yes, this means campaigning. But I won't share my knowledge about what Dark Age does or plans here now, else I get shot by my fellow developers.


...The above is very interesting 8) but I guess I'll have to sit in the shadows and sharpen my knives :twisted: ...just give me their names and soon you'll be knig!!

Anyway... :lol:


You want a streamlined game that emphasizes game flow and fast playability? Then I doubt it.

In Dark Age the quality is woven into the troop definition, so a Buzz Blade will always be of limited "quality" compared to Strikes for example. Not to say there aren't elite Buzz-Blades (like the Charity troops) or even elite Strikes (could be possible). If you look close enough at the skills and abilities of the DA troops you will find the difference between vets and rookies. But yes, we're keeping these variances between troop types, not to further differ within the types.

This will definitely lessen the amount of game time you have to spend for flipping thru books or searching for game stats, as well as calculating the dice rolls. On a tactical level this is something we opted for to get a fast playing game.

....DA_Demorney

I do see the advantages in haveing the "troop quality" built into the profiles - I noticed that in F.A.D one is "building the profiles", as is stated in the F.A.D rules, this system is designed to allow different miniature ranges to be "blended" together hence the need to assign such basic things as profiles (conscript, regular, veteran, or elite) to the forces which a given player might field.

A interesting mix the of the two schools of thought is Necromunda, profiles are given, but one can improve a given miniatures fighting skills or the reverse depending on the results of a previous game...roll a D20 (in the case of DA) to see how things such as AR or DF or HP improve per a result chart. This would of course depend on if a player won or lost a battle.

[gunslinger]

yep, but one big problem with necromunda is win creep. if you win 6 games and all your opponents (let's say 5) have all lost you have a uber army that will not be able to lose to them, you get bigger as they break their armies against you.. to the point your army can't lose.

and they can never win.. no fun that.. and i have been on both sides of it.. it blows chunks..

[Agustine Nunez]

yep, but one big problem with necromunda is win creep. if you win 6 games and all your opponents (let's say 5) have all lost you have a uber army that will not be able to lose to them, you get bigger as they break their armies against you.. to the point your army can't lose.


....Gunslinger

So how does one fix such a problem? What would you change or adjust in such a system?? :shock:

[DA_Demorney]

Fixation can be including erratic factors into the game system. It all comes down to the question whether a player can dominate the game system or whether the game system is always able to surprise the players and thus even the odds.

Development of players forces is a striking option, fun and bearing an element of identification, but it has to be within limits when it comes to a direct tactical improvement. Non-linear improvements help greatly, but also raise the complexity of a rules system. Narrative elements help also, but need reflection within the game system.

I have a solution here, lol, but as always I have to shut up now ...

[gunslinger]

yep, but one big problem with necromunda is win creep. if you win 6 games and all your opponents (let's say 5) have all lost you have a uber army that will not be able to lose to them, you get bigger as they break their armies against you.. to the point your army can't lose.


....Gunslinger

So how does one fix such a problem? What would you change or adjust in such a system?? :shock:

necromunda offered a balance system that would reward the lower player extra experience after the game.. this was the problem, most lower exp players never made it through or had to bottle out. some system to even them out similar to blood bowls dirty player stuff. if you had so much exp higher than mine i get to take x amount of dirty play cards to throw at you during the match, to even the odds as it were,

but to be honest, i would ask you this.. what would you think is fair? then put that to paper and play test it to see if it works.. if it does, then you have your answer

[steeldragon]

yep, but one big problem with necromunda is win creep. if you win 6 games and all your opponents (let's say 5) have all lost you have a uber army that will not be able to lose to them, you get bigger as they break their armies against you.. to the point your army can't lose.

and they can never win.. no fun that.. and i have been on both sides of it.. it blows chunks..

In that case I'll call the Judges... wait... that was for the Judge Dredd game...

:P

Andres

[Wayne Rogers]

Confrontation "Dogs Of War" (the Mordheimized Confrontation) has several methods of balancing experienced warbands. I beleive one of the options is to take advantage cards for the lower rated band. I have to look deeper into it. I have only scanned the book yet.

[DA_Demorney]

In that case I'll call the Judges... wait... that was for the Judge Dredd game...

:P

Andres

But please, please don't call Judge Dredd if he looks like Stallone - we have to keep a certain level of quality here :shock:

[gunslinger]

I am the Law!

[Agustine Nunez]

Confrontation "Dogs Of War" (the Mordheimized Confrontation) has several methods of balancing experienced warbands. I beleive one of the options is to take advantage cards for the lower rated band.

....Wayne Rogers

I hope hear about these "methods" in the near future. The concept - advantage cards , sounds interesting.. 8)

[xeoran]

particually as that leaves time for payback.

The importance of providing players with the chance for revenge should never be underestimated.

It most definately is, only trouble is last time my opponent tried his revenge he got beaten in the next two games too... :D ..he wasnt happy! :twisted: :twisted:

For Urban War I feel the Calibre system is an inspired idea and a crap agme mechanism. What is needed is limiting. So I would have had +1 to shooting rather than another shot. That sort of thing. It's an OK game (6/10) and one where I'm considering buying the niceold Void stuff and using it in that. Mayhaps I'll just re-write stuff.

For veterans and the like I think DA has it down pat, if a trooper is that good he gets promoted. Simple and easy. Plus it makes selecting every unit that bit more tactical.

On Necromunda, great game. The way to beat "win" creep I have found is to ahve a GM and allow 2 players to gang up on the bigger gang. Alternatively for every 20 experience beyond a certain imit (IE 100 points above the other guys gang) give a free re-roll. It works OK but ganging up is best. Alternatively gangs can gang up on much larger gangs with a randomly determined Enforcer team. That sort of thing.

[Stunke]

RPG-like campaigns are really the way to go for necromunda.
We had a spyrer gang, and Escher gang totally wipe the floor with the other gangs because their skills were just working so well together, so in time we got to scrag the leader and the escher heavy, which sort of brought them back to level again :twisted:
i had a juve that only got BS and fast draw, he was a gift from heaven when we were squaring off on the fast draw, he had that skill where he could fire a pistol from each hand too.

Man he rocked!

[xeoran]

My "sucess" story was the Goliath Heavy with Autocannon who always killed my opponents Leader or one of their Heavies. He did it something like 5 games in a row. Damn I loved that guy, named "Lunk". Necromunda and RPG just fit so well. Pity GW dont support it very well in miniatures terms.

[Stunke]

Yeah, but there are so many companies out there makingvery credible street punks, so you don't really need the gw models.
The living rulebook is also kind of neat.
I can't rememberif they've laid the rules for man o war out for public display too.
' will have to check up on that one.

[xeoran]

Nah, no Man O War, which is a real pity. I'd love living rulebooks for Titan Legions, Space Marine and old Adeptus Titanicus too..

Living rulebooks are amazing.

It's true lots of people make great street punks but I've never found enough that match the Esher look I have in mind. Still, at least they re-did my beloved Goliaths (they're all muscle, no brain, old skool punk and biceps bigger than their guns, Lovely!).

[Stunke]

I've found a page with the complete manowar rules, templates for scanning and printing, along with every fleet list out there.

[starship troopers]
Would you like to know more?
[/starship troopers]

[xeoran]

Hell yes I would, time to unload some Brentonnian firepower on those Poncey High Elves! :D

[Stunke]

I just tried zooming past my old link, but it seems he has removed the rules from his homepage.
Or maybe it's just my computer acting up since it wont show me the page.
oh well.

http://dougram.battletechnology.org

was where I found it all, some time ago.
But I have no idea why I can't find the exact same pages as back then.
Too bad :?

[xeoran]

Nooo.... :x

[Agustine Nunez]

http://dougram.battletechnology.org/PictureOfTheWeek/FemaleFootball.jpg


:?:

Wonder what she would have to say about troop quality :lol: ...

[Galyn]

Woah!

I gotta ask, whats the source of that pic?

I always ment to go see a WNFL game before I moved out of Michigan, as its a professional football team in Michigan that wins is something I've never seen in my lifetime.

(not to sound too much of a male pig, but: If that's their normal uniforms, I might take a drive back for a game. . . or 12)

[DA_Magpie]

*Gasp* Why you shocking male pig! :wink:

The picture comes from page Stunke linked to and appears to be in place of the rules he was talking about. Some people might regard this as a tragedy

[Stunke]

Youre looking at this all wrong.

The rules for man o war are down there somewhere, the women playing that odd ball game where you wear ice hockey protection but no skates, is an added bonus you see.

[DA_Demorney]

Of course, Stunk, of course ... I mean, we all believe you, of course ...

:twisted:

[Stunke]

pretty picture though :roll:

[gunslinger]

yeah, of course the numbers are on the most prominent bumps.. of course..

[steeldragon]

Anyway... if you do a little browsing you'll discover the Man O War stuff...

http://dougram.battletechnology.org/TableTopGaming/GamesWorkshop/ManOWar/ManOWar.htm

Andres

[xeoran]

Yeah its all on there, he has some interesting stuff.And nice pictures.... :wink: