Seeking a new Challange in mini gaming...Dark age mayb?

[Brence]

Heya there, Im new to Dark Age. Actually played lots of games and the style of Dark Age kinda put me on. Just wondering how the system works etc. I've played:

Warhammer 40k
Warhammer Fantasy
Necromunda
Bloodbowl
Warmachine
Confrontation
Rag'narok
Hybrid

And well I must say, Warmachine was the most flawless (others where either to complicated for quik play, to easy to be interesting or just to much Corperate Drekk. So what does Dark Age have to offer?

What I like:

-A fresh system with emphasis on detail (think Mordheim, Necromunda etc)
-A game that is both tactically challenging but doesnt take hours to start (Warhammer's famous/infamous half our deplpyement phases).
-A game with challenging background
-A game that can be played on a students budget

Well hope one of you's can help out here.

-Brence-

[Stunke]

Dark Age!

I switched to Dark Age efter having played mini games from I was 13 years 'till I was 17, back then I stopped playing because WHFB was incredible tiresome, full of long waits and way too easily exploited. I returned to the gaming scene out of curiosity about a year and a half ago to see if warhammer had regained anything that might draw me back into the game, alas it was not to be.

what DID happen was that I stumbled across the Dark Age forum after searching for cool minies and different game systems that might get me to the hobby, and I got really hooked on miniatures yet again.
With this new interest I started searching the net for other games and it has surely been a frantic search.
As of now I am looking into Urban War, Infinity, Full thrust, Armies of Arcana, Hordes, Mage Knight (!!!) and warmachine.

I am a big fan of warmachine for its ruthless playstyle and smooth gameplay, I love the huge amounts of dirty tricks that can be pulled, and the fact that everyone does so, because it's simply necessary, and the games been designed for it.
Now Dark Age plays very differently, not that you can't power play your way through something, but there are always loopholes that your opponent can take advantage of, by other means than just upping the STR of their own big guys.
The tactics of warmachine are very tangible. You can always count up the modifiers, add a dice or two, throw in a spell and a feat and "BAM!!!" somethings deader than dead.

The tactics section of Dark Age seems empty compared to the PP forums, which could imply that this is a simple line-em-up-and-get-it-done game. The truth is (as I see it) is that the action point system of Dark Age (more on this later) makes you able to do so many things in whatever sequence you need it to be done, that you can include a couple of real life tactics.
This means that tactics are actually harder to come up with and decribe on a forum, because you have to adapt more to every situation than you usually have to.

Terrain now becomes a huge factor, lines of fire and bottlenecks are terrible because from time to time, you will be able to force your opponent into them, if you herd him around the right way.
You can set up ambushes, you can spring ambushes early if your opponent didn't cover himself in properly, but none if this is in the rules, it comes with the game!

The activation system works in a way where you and your opponent roll a d20 to see who wins initiative, every turn! This means that if you moved the last unit in a turn and you win the next initiative, you will be able to activate the same unit again.

Now another trick is: If you win initiative, you can choose to have your opponent move first, and you can even tell him which unit has to activate.

Activating models work from a pool of action points. (AP)
If a model has 3 AP he gets to spend them in different ways, in any combination he likes, as long as he doesn't exceed his firing weapons RoF (just like Warmachine) The difference is that in Dark Age, you can fire your guns, THEN move, move a bit, fire your gun, and scamper back to cover.
Any combination of moving, fighting in melee, shooting, casting spells or foci, commanding the troops (a neat trick where you break normal activation sequence) and so on is viable.
The AP system also means that if you have a lot of ground to cover before you get into close combat, you wont have the time to deliver as many attacks as you normalle would, simply because within the timeframe of the game, you have spent time running, as opposed to clubbing someone the whole time.
In ANY other game, you get the same fighting prowess no matter if you run an inch or cover the table, as long as you have got the movement for it. So you actually have to sneak up a lot closer than you might be used to, if you want to have the full effect of your charge.
Dark Age is in centimeters instead of inches too, so distances are more easily tweaked and perfected. You could think of Dark Age as functioning in 2/5" measurement if you like. Not that it's a big issue, but "metric" europeans like myself love it!
When you have activated every member of a unit, your opponent activates one of his, so get a chess-like activation where you alternate moving your pieces. Instead of the usual IGOUGO of WHFB and warmachine.

This is a very simple mechanic, but it totally changes the way the game plays.

Now on the subject of money:
Dark Age beats them all, hands down!

You need about 400 to 750 points of troops, and I've bought 1400 points for about 175$ including the rules.
If you buy the warband boxes, know that 6 models in a single Squad (of forsaken anyway) is actually quite a big Squad.
Often, people will play with 2-4 models in a Squad, not that it's ever a bad idea to buy a box, just be aware that you actually get enough models to form two standard units or one big unit for slightly larger games.

The various warbands associated with a leader is a very good place to start.
No matter where in the world you currently are, this guy has the cheapest online store around. P&P is the lowest I've ever seen, and he carries Dark Age with discounts better than anyone elses I've seen.

http://www.artemisblacks.com/

Now if you look through a couple of army lists and check out the prices for the models you'd like to own, I'm confident that you'll find yourself pleasantly surprised at how cheap this game is to start up on.
Oh and if you've never seen a Dark Age mini in real life, I'll bet that you will find yourself pleasantly surprised at their size.
For comparison I've taken a picture of Murtros (a brood model), standing next to my slayer.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Stunke/Telefon049.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Stunke/Telefon050.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Stunke/Telefon051.jpg

Good luck with it all, and welcome to the boards.

(play brood)

[Brence]

Thanks for the extensive info, Indeed Warmachine/Hordes is one of the games I still DO play and wont leave be. But I'm always curious to new systems and the simple fact is that Warmachine is a great bog and hack game I also like a game where I can do more with scenario's etc...Just to get more of a roleplay aspect out of the game wich WM/HD pretty much lacks (or just doesnt need/use) Let me compare it like this: Warmachine/Hordes is my Warhammer. So what im looking for now is my specialist game :P (as a gamestore clerk you really see the pattern of a player playing a real battle oriented game (Warhammer (for me warmachine) and a game like Necromunda (more roleplay aspects) Wich I love about Warmachine is the aggressive yet still pretty detailed style. But as i see infinity and Dark Age i see a more roleplay approach wich I also kinda like/miss.

And yes, im one of those rare kinds of gamers wich play more then just one game and still say they are both good. (sigh those beardy's who only yell that the system they play is the only good one).

[Stunke]

I love Dark Age and Warmachine for completely different reasons, which is why I can stand playing them both at the same time. The systems are both very well functioning and still completely different, so you don't get a feeling that you are playing a beta version of one of the games, like people playing Warhammer fantasy and Armies of Arcana at the same time, who will be bored to tears with WHFB.

The feel of Dark Age is also very different. Warmachine feels VERY heroic, Dark Age feels like an intense struggle. Not that you have to endure tons of failed dice rolls, just that the models and the background, along with game mechanics gives you that gritty feel.
BTW one important point about Dark Age.
There are no holy cows. Leaders and characters are tough and bad assed, but they die just like everybody else, so you gotta protect them.
This is important for new players who'd like to create monster characters that'll just whoop ass all over the place.
We've got 'em, no doubt about it, but you can't rely on them to trounce everything around them.

...unless you play brood!

And uhm (I'll lose my playtester job for this) I think that you can easily play both Dark Age and inifinity on the same budget (I'm currently on a students ditto, so I'm always sorta strapped for cash and I'm not having problems with it).

edit: I never mentioned that the owners of Dark Age Games log in regularly (not standard-regularly, I mean: "They're not hard getting a hold of ever-regularly") the entire PT team is here (as you can see :wink: ) along with the team of demo guys known as outcasts and so on and so on...

And apart from Punkrabbit, were all pretty sane guys... Well except for the scots(of whom two are women) and Shinobi AKA the pud-guy.
Oh yeah gunslinger, and most of the germans, are pretty volatile characters too... something about sheep, pirates and killing moles... don't ask.
And there are even some guys running around promoting certain armies over the others in very blatant manner.

But apart from that, we're very easy to get along with :wink:

[Pr0fane]

Welcome to our corner, Brence.

I saw your question and was all prepared for a rather lengthy post. Then I read Stunke's. He's left very little room to add anything. ;)

Well, maybe I will add that you have excellent timing. With the release of Exodus, our second book right around the corner you'll have the forces of Saint Mary and the Skarrd also available to you.

Don't worry Stunke, you won't be spanked for actually liking other games. We're not looking to brainwash anybody. We're convinced we have a winner of a system here, but it's up to the individual to reach that same conclusion.

Cheers!

[Stunke]

I got seven words for you pr0:
Infinity, avatar D.E.W.

:D

[Aselan]

One of the germans is me.
Brood are a nice force if you want to have one army that can adapt to almost every situation.
The following forcelist is very solid:
3 Pud throwers
3 Sawblades
Gazelle
And now optional:
2 Grist

or one of the other leaders + equippment.
Makes about 750 PV which is a standard-size. Bigger one would be 1000 PV. I seldom play more than 1000PV. Most people don't.

[DA_Demorney]

and most of the germans, are pretty volatile characters too... I read that ....

[gunslinger]

Oh yeah gunslinger, and most of the germans, are pretty volatile characters too... :wink:

why thank you.. It must be my German heritage ..... although I am mostly harmless. lol

[Stunke]

'thought you were irish...

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Stunke/hijcak.jpg

Lets get back on topic, though.
Clue: new guy, would like to know more...

Take it from here folks.

[Brence]

Well well well, it all sounds promising enough. But convince me, tell me some of youre personal expiriences with the game. Funny battles nostalgic events? Whatever just to get a feeling about the whole.

[gunslinger]

off topic.. german/irish.. father's side is from ireland. mother's side is from germany


on topic.. convince you huh? how about i say you won't know what you are missing until you give it a go.. if i say mal'ing your armor rolls is a bad thing, will you understand? probably not.. how about crit malling?

i would ask you to give us a reason why you shouldn't play? naw that's too easy there is no reason you shouldn't play..

my games are mainly playtesting, so nuts and bolts stuff, the demo boys should step up and give you some awesome what fors..

[Brence]

Lol right, well read trough the Quikstart Rules pretty quikly. Do like the general idea, comparing it to Infinity its kinda the same BUT what makes it special? What options do you have except for just attacking in range and combat? For example are there more rules like lying prone and such cuz that makes it far more interesting :D

[Freakbrain]

hum..what makes Dark Age special...

to me this is:

simple but still detailed skirmish rules, where you can jump, get prone, and what you see is what you get cover rules (mostly cause I don't use area cover).

Cowerdice shall not be tolerated. Great rule, very funny to see your fleeing forces getting slayn by your own troops.

Malfunctions caused most of the funny moments in my games....I just say Saint Mark or Grafter in the old rules set.

Fast, aggressive, brutal and gory.

critical rolls (1, 20).

Rest see Stunke :)

Final word from me: Dark Age is a game which I'm proud of being involved into. Guess I wouldn't have blackmailed everyone just to get into the staffs area in any other company. It convinced right from the first game.

[Brence]

Well how is Dark Age about weapon options etc? Cuz I know that infintiy has many extensive but not complicated rules involving different equipment and weapns so what does Dark Age have on that part ?

[Vaxillus]

This may not be so much a recap or a story, but these are some of my initial impressions of the game. Let me say that out of the games I play (Confrontation, Dark Age, and Rezolution) Dark Age is the simplest to sit down, set up, and finish in under an hour. The games, assuming the PV isn't too high, will rarely take longer than this, but not for any lack of tactics. The game system is increadibly streamlined, to a point where some call it too simple. It isn't, however. Having played Confrontation, I know what it's like to have fun with complex rules systems. Yet Dark Age manages to give me pretty much the same experience of a tactically enriching game with less wound charts and obscure rules. This is because the nature of the game lends itself far more to manuevering and improvisation than it does to making the perfect army list, which I feel makes the game different from the rest.

My first few games with the rules were quite rewarding. I was able to pretty much fully comprehend the rules within the first few games, apart from the inevitable few necessary clarifications. The system, as I stated before, is very fast paced. The game features a strange mix of close combat and ranged fighting that works extremely well. An all ranged army can be quite fearsome untill engaged in close combat, while a close ccombat army is forced to utilize cover to get into combat without taking a few nasty blows. Things die quite quickly, but they're still worth their points value in toughness. I found this lead to a fast and vicious game where you spent a lot of time acting and reacting rather than being bogged down in lengthy combats or delving through rulebooks.

Something else I really fell in love with in te game are the malfunctions. When you roll poorly in any game you tend to fail, but in Dark Age the punishment can be quite harsh. Certain weapons, especially volatile things like energy weapons and flamethrowers, can malfunction and injure the bearer! These weapons have a 'Mal' number. If you equal or beat this number on a die roll to hit (low rolls are better in Dark Age), the weapon malfunctions and the bearer is hit! One of the more powerful characters, Saint Mark, has a weapon infamous for malfunctioning, and thus has a particularly nasty malfuntion value. In one of my early games, some bad rolls lead to him frying himself. This tend to force the player to weigh the value of firing particularly powerful weapons such as this against the chance of them malfuntioning.

[gunslinger]

you will notice that in the fast start rules that each unit is allowed certain weapons choices.. they are already predetermined, so there isn't the swap this out for that wargear, however, the units are so diverse that you can swap x unit for y unit if you think you need ranged attacks, or y unit for z unit if you want hard close combat, or z unit for x unit if you want a variance of the two..

like freakbrain, i never playtested for anyone, never wanted to, dark age sucked me in so fast i was playtesting before i realized it.. the game is fast, frantic, frenzied and very very deadly. one wrong move and bam, you are hurting, .... it's awesome independant unit activation, team up, swarms of puds, technology that has been forgotten, artifacts that are irreplaceable and evolution.. it's all there, monsters, misunderstood creatures, evil, demonic, psychotic, paranoid, etc..

the water is cold, dark and full of things that will keep you awake at night, jump in headfirst, let it wash over youand soon you too will become a part of the whole.. that is Dark Age

[Vaxillus]

So much happened while I was writing that lengthy post. As Gunslinger wrote each unit comes pre-equipped with weapons, there's no swapping out. This never really bothered me, as it means each unit is more tailored towards a certain role. It makes the units far more unique. To reiterate, most of the tactics take place on the table instead of during army creation, which suits the background of the game. Nobody on Samaria knows what they're going to run into while walking around, so they might as well bring whatever they can. I'm not saying it's better or worse, but it has its ups and downs.

As for rules like prone and such, there are quite a few rules for conditions such as being prone, poison, fire, going berserk, numb, etc. If you meant more the position of the soldier, there aren't really anymore rules like this, i.e. there are no special rules for peeking around cover or anything, but there are the necessary rules for climbing, crawling, and cover.

[Brence]

Hmmm sounds pretty stable, just gotta figure out what the story behind it all is...the minis are what mm size btw ?

[Pr0fane]

G'day Brence. To find out about mini sizes...check out the online store. Each unit has it's height in mm listed.

[Stunke]

Hmmm sounds pretty stable, just gotta figure out what the story behind it all is...the minis are what mm size btw ?

I've posted a few pictures of brood standing next to my slayer in my first post, so you might get a good impression of their size there.
Brood are taller than humans, whereas Dragyri are as tall, but wider than brood!
Humans are about the same scale as warmachine humans.

[Brence]

kay kay so its a scale of 30mm standard :D

[xeoran]

DA is just...fun. I recently started with the Quick Start Rules and it's very similar to Infintiy. (Of course on a student budget you can run both- I am!). Thing is Infinity is gun happy so everything is ultra quick and ranged combat and sneking are order of the day. DA is far more CC orientated while maintaining he fun of ranged combat. Really Infinity is a cheery system like modern warfare while DA is just the best Apocayptic game system ever...

[Stunke]

And that's coming from a guy with more than 666.000 posts on the infinity forum.

Thumbs up!

[xeoran]

Not that many posts...(not like I'm just coming up to something like 3,000 posts. No, damn it, I am! :shock: ).
Well I love mnay games, what can I say? You make a good game and I'll buy it! :D

[DA_Magpie]

So Freakbrain was drawn into the staff, Gunslinger into playtesting and I found myself addicted to a miniatures game (planning army number 3) without having the slightest interest beforehand. Join us, you know you want to.

Hmmm

[Stunke]

You still do!

[Agustine Nunez]

Thing is Infinity is gun happy so everything is ultra quick and ranged combat and sneking are order of the day. ...Xeoran

Ya know I've only read about this game and I down loaded the rules. Seems like a "strange system" to me, not bad, but strange. So Xeoran how would you explain the rules for infinity to a novice? The figs well some of the troops look good but seem a bit too Japan-o-mation to me...

[Shinobi]

I think that question should really go into the Mayhem and Misc section :roll: , coz I would like to read his answer as well 8)

[prclimber]

As others have said about the weapons, for the most part, you have no options, units come equipped with weapons and you can't change that. Yeah you can't customize as much but it stops the game from being about who has the biggest gun and turns it more into who can play better.

That's one thing I really like about DA, unlike many other games, DA is really fluent. What that means is that you actually have to use tactics to win, the game isn't all about who has better stats or who has better equipment and who has cheesed out their army more. If you notice, the tactics section of the warmachine forums or a 40k forum or a whfb forum all revolve around creating the biggest, meanest, most powerful force you can. They pay no heed to actual tactics, it just degrades into "what is the best combo I can come up with" in essence, it's magic the gathering with miniatures. This is pushed even further when you add in 40k/whfb's extensive equipment system which means that not only do you now have to "pimp your army" to win, you have to "pimp each individual soldier." Personally, I find that sort of thing to be ridiculous and a big turn off. I have 2 40k armies and a WM one too, but they're really a waste of my time, paint, and money since in a wargame I look for that-a war game. I want something that requires some tactical knowledge to win and, so far in the fantasy/sci-fi department, DA does just that. The AP system, the way turns are handled, the lack of oodles of equipment, and the fact that the game doesn't revolve around stacking and boosting to get the most powerful attack all, IMO, create a balanced and tactically challenging setting that is still fast, deadly, and most of all fun.

[Shinobi]

Nice post prclimber :D

That is actually one of our objectives during playtesting......... to break the armies and find any power-combos or cheese-lists. Its one of the things we want to try and avoid with the game, as well as keeping all the armies balanced in their own special way.

Much as I hate to admit it, but we are finding ourselves seriously toning down the Brood to prevent them being too powerful........ *sigh*

I bought a load of WM figures when they first came out because I liked the figures, but have only played a couple of games, simply because of........ as you put it very well:


it's magic the gathering with miniatures

I hardly play 40K or WHFB as well these days, again for the same reasons.

I'm currently looking at Infinity, and hoping that this game avoids this problem as well............

[Vaxillus]

That's another point that was perhaps left out. Dark Age is by far the best ballanced gaming system I have ever played. Each troop has its edge, each force its specialties, but when it comes right down to it, I have yet to run into something that I could considder 'cheesy.'

[xeoran]

I think that question should really go into the Mayhem and Misc section :roll: , coz I would like to read his answer as well 8)

I'll start a new thread in Misc. later guys (when I a have some time).

[Shinobi]

Sweet!

Also see if that Bostria guy can do a Dark Age strip? His stuff is bloody hilarious :D

[Stunke]

The last one with the shaolin who's a Close combat expert LVL 3, who takes aim and lines up for the first blow is my favorite!

Reminds me of the strip "turn signals on a land raider"
Marine #1: Whos that chunky guy over there?
Marine #2: Actually he's not chunky, he's out paintscheme tester. ' been painted 216 times.

[xeoran]

Sweet!

Also see if that Bostria guy can do a Dark Age strip? His stuff is bloody hilarious :D

Have you seen the latest? The Aleph wildlife show? Friggin hilarious! :D

[prclimber]

Nice post prclimber Very Happy

Thanks, I try, and like I said, I very rarely play 40k or WM anymore either. DA is where it is at as far as I'm concerned. Infinity looks interesting but I'm not going to make the dive until it comes along a little more and I can see/hear more about it.

And who is this Bostria guy? I know TSOALR but not the other.

[Shinobi]

http://www.elmonolisto.com/tiras/english.htm

Excellent stuff, now lets try and get him to do some DA stuff?

[xeoran]

Sorry guys for no Infinity introduction, got bogged down so I will leave you with this;

http://www.infinitythegame.com/foro/forum/viewtopic.php?t=455

[Brence]

As others have said about the weapons, for the most part, you have no options, units come equipped with weapons and you can't change that. Yeah you can't customize as much but it stops the game from being about who has the biggest gun and turns it more into who can play better.

That's one thing I really like about DA, unlike many other games, DA is really fluent. What that means is that you actually have to use tactics to win, the game isn't all about who has better stats or who has better equipment and who has cheesed out their army more. If you notice, the tactics section of the warmachine forums or a 40k forum or a whfb forum all revolve around creating the biggest, meanest, most powerful force you can. They pay no heed to actual tactics, it just degrades into "what is the best combo I can come up with" in essence, it's magic the gathering with miniatures. This is pushed even further when you add in 40k/whfb's extensive equipment system which means that not only do you now have to "pimp your army" to win, you have to "pimp each individual soldier." Personally, I find that sort of thing to be ridiculous and a big turn off. I have 2 40k armies and a WM one too, but they're really a waste of my time, paint, and money since in a wargame I look for that-a war game. I want something that requires some tactical knowledge to win and, so far in the fantasy/sci-fi department, DA does just that. The AP system, the way turns are handled, the lack of oodles of equipment, and the fact that the game doesn't revolve around stacking and boosting to get the most powerful attack all, IMO, create a balanced and tactically challenging setting that is still fast, deadly, and most of all fun.

Actually just wanted to comment on the Warmachine comment, Warmachine is very simular to DA in certain ways and it IS about tactics cause no single unit/jack can survive or be effective without atleast the Warcaster to control it. Otherwise Indeed 40k and WHFB have evolved into "I got 5 tanks and 3 instant kill weapons in my 500 point army" I as you may allready notice play Warmachine also and love the game for its fast and aggressive game system, detailed combat and tactical decision making. What brings me to DA is the even more personal combat system where single models count even more. (warmachine does revolve around small army's)

[DA_Demorney]

That's simply in the nature of DA, in a post apocalyptical setting most conflicts bear the face of skirmishes and raids. Right now the known races all are busy with exploring, scavenging and securing scarce resources.

Of course this can change and things coul develop to a greater scale, but not in the moment ....

[Brence]

Sure but I think the system is also not really made for it (thinking of 40k second edition wich also had a very expanded system but bogged down to more administration then gaming, keeping scores, stances etc). I likethe scene and imagry that DA portrays. Also the even more skirmished system makes a nice change from WM wich is more "war scale skirmish". Owwel we will see what future brings...

[DA_Demorney]

absolutely correct, this is also my point :)

if (and I say if) we decide to modify the scale this will of course also mean we have to adapt the rules set to fit to it ...

[Brence]

If (and he said IF) you would do that I think you would (no offense) have a hard time cause there are many more big fishes out there on that scale. I see WM/Hordes as a subtitute for WH40K. Actually I think that both games opt for the same scale and style of play being opposites on the same scale. whereas DA is another scale (more like infinity necromunda etc). And I know PP had to struggle and come up with some fine system and special feel to make it work

[witchfire]

i used to play warzone (1' ed.) & chronopia & somehow DA's rules kinda
reminds me of them (but better & easyer to get into)


now if only more game stores were to stock it :evil:

[DA_Demorney]

If (and he said IF) you would do that I think you would (no offense) have a hard time cause there are many more big fishes out there on that scale. I see WM/Hordes as a subtitute for WH40K. Actually I think that both games opt for the same scale and style of play being opposites on the same scale. whereas DA is another scale (more like infinity necromunda etc). And I know PP had to struggle and come up with some fine system and special feel to make it work

lol, I agree

that's why I said "if" ... :lol: