Some thing GW may have done right

[Rua Baineann]

My son and I started Warhammer over 10 years ago, we purchased a complete boxed game, with 2 armies (goblins and elves), quick start rules, measuring devices, dice etc. This is what got us hooked on miniatures gaming. Since then their box sets have appeared in dept stores and Barnes and Noble etc. Good sound marketing if you ask me.

[Osiris]

I was thinking about what an introdcutory Dark Age starting set would look like. Cronfrontation has recently begun putting out an 'Initiation' Set. It also takes the responsiblity off of comming out with your own starting army which has both it's pros and its cons.

An interesting thought.

I guess the question is what would come with it and how much would it be?

Cheers,

Osiris

[Stunke]

Warhammer, confrontation, and warmachine all need to make it inexpensive for players to START the game, because costs will quickly add up because of all the things you need.
Dark Age doesn't need that, becasue it is inexpensive throughout.

And this is coming from a guy that loves warmachine almost as much as he loves Dark Age. If you can only choose one game, and money is an issue, I think the cost/benefit advantage goes to Dark Age.

[Pyrrhus]

A few xmas' ago GWs LOTR boxed gamed shwed up in the Chapters/Indigo bookstores. Sold fairly well if memory serves - but since then their product has been restricted to specialty shops only. Curious to see if that starts to change.

[DA_Grafter]

I think they are refering to marketing, smoke'n mirrors, not the actual product itself. It is a thought... all the other games do it.

[Stunke]

No doubt about the benefit of making those intro-sets.
But for me the biggest advantage is that WHFB has so bad rules, that people will get into the hobby through the extreme exposure from GW, and then revert to other games when they find out about other systems.

A starter DA box might be handy too though.

[Wayne Rogers]

This is one of Simon's new strategies for Rezolution. They are putting the Shadow Wars boxset in bookstores and such.

[Anarch]

We do have starter sets... sorta. The warband sets. I assume that eventually each faction will have a small 350ish point warband which will be their starter army.

[DA_Grafter]

Yeah, we can do a box set for that purpose... but then again, look at warmachine... they are one of the most successful mini comps, and thye didn't make one... old school tactics may not always work. I will have a think after we get a few more faction specific box sets out.

[Jordan]

Yeah, we can do a box set for that purpose... but then again, look at warmachine... they are one of the most successful mini comps, and thye didn't make one... old school tactics may not always work. I will have a think after we get a few more faction specific box sets out.

One consideration there is putting the quick start rules with the 'starters,' which in DA's case might be the saint warbands and equivalent.

[gunslinger]

THIS could easily go good or poorly, depending on popularity of armies.. How many time have you heard the, "can i swap out chaos for the nids or can i swap orcs for spacemarines?" of course we know a starter set is based on popular armies, but then you have to deal with the "you didn't include my army in that" people.

A starter set or a suggested starter set only available on the dark age website might also be a good choice..

[Chopa]

If all the new warband sets follow the St. Mark mold itll be great as with that set alone you can run numerous types of armies up to 500 points all of which can do ok against another force (a little trouble against a horde IMHo but thats not too common) Heck the old St. John and father sets are still pretty beefy pointswise (400ish and 500ish respectively) all DA needs to do IMHO is offer up more starters for the other factions like Dragyri/Brood/St. mary


(not sure whats in the Curwen box [besides curwen] so cant comment on that though Im sure itll be great)

[DA_Grafter]

DAG3106 Skarrd Toxic Cult Warband
(1 SE Father Curwen, 1 Bone Doc #1, 1 Hoodoo, 1 Chitin, 2 Toxic Mistress)

[Stunke]

best...box-set...ever

[DA_Grafter]

Opps, sorry, left out Kaustic...

:oops:

[xeoran]

You can always do the sets by rulebook. I.E. Genesis box has Genesis rules, St Mark Warband and Ice Cast Warband. Then put QSR in the warband boxes.

[Goliath]

THIS could easily go good or poorly, depending on popularity of armies.. How many time have you heard the, "can i swap out chaos for the nids or can i swap orcs for spacemarines?" of course we know a starter set is based on popular armies, but then you have to deal with the "you didn't include my army in that" people.

That's my problem with Warhammer's approach too. I could buy the new Warhammer set, but I don't want to play either Goblins or Dwarves. I much prefer PP's tactic of army starter box and quick start rules. The rules are already available for free on the website here, so putting them in boxes won't be too much of a stretch.

Actually, how feasible would it be to include the QS rules in all Dark Age boxes? Sure, you would then end up with people that have a library of rules, like those that play Confrontation do, but it doesn't stop you from giving multiple copies to new players and spreading the love.

[bj]

best...box-set...ever

He says that know, wait until a brood box set comes out

I'm buying the new WHFB set, mainly to get the rules and the spider riders, the rest goes to Punky so he can use it as trading fodder in our local gaming group, he'd get more milage out of it than I would.

[Blackhand]

A starter set or a suggested starter set only available on the dark age website might also be a good choice..

afraid I won't agree with you there. #1 thing you do not want to do is alienate your retailers. Without them DA will only stagnate and die.

Making a starter set that you could actually opick two boxsets of choice and then get a Box that would include dice, 2 Tape Measures( Finding ones in CM is hard unless you want to pay alot for them) Templates( Which I am sure GF9 would go for. Might be away to go.

Byron

[bj]

Starter set for DA at this stage would not be a good idea. Maybe in a few years after everyone has given up their schoolboy fascination with Warmachine and matured enough to play a real game like DA when it will introduce it's 9th and 10th armies.

[Chopa]

Why is it that every model Im getting for skarrd happens to be in that dang box?

Dangit Im gonna have doubles of those solos just for curwen

(Is it really bone doc #1?)

[Anarch]

Ok this is the problem with a prepackaged set of miniatures and rules... GW includes plastic models... neither DA or Warmachine uses them.

But one could very easily put 350 points of coils & banes vrs buzzblades & mights/harpies (heck its like trying to pick your favorite child :? ) with a set of starter rules for less than $40 in metal to build up interest.

[Rua Baineann]

I also remember,one of the best parts of the box game was a 10 page color catalog. Got me drooling. I probably bought over $1500 worth of GW before sanity set in.

[DA_Magpie]

1: Didn

[Racel]

2 Tape Measures( Finding ones in CM is hard unless you want to pay alot for them)

Just want to point out that a trip to a dollar store will solve the tape measure problem. Since the tape measures are made in China, they have both inches and CM. Best yet, they cost only a dollar. I have tons of them for gaming. They are also good for conventions and demos since you can buy several and if one wanders away, not big loss.

Jeff

[xeoran]

Magpie, actually if you make it a QSR (ie, here are the basic rules, play and if you like buy the full rules) it works better. Infinity puts QSR's in their starter sets and I've yet to hear a complaint (aside from the fact they are printer unfriendly.).

[Blackhand]

Actually the dollar store around here all have only inches :evil:

You pretty much have to go to Home Depot or a hardware store and still have issues finding them.

Byron

[Rua Baineann]

As far as boxed sets, I'm only relating how we got started in miniatures gaming, for those who are switching from one game to another, then yes, it probably is not the best arrangement.

[Goliath]

You pretty much have to go to Home Depot or a hardware store and still have issues finding them.

Huzzah for living in a land that switched to the Metric system! 8)

[DA_Grafter]

You can pick the cloth tape measures up for about a dollar each at Walmart at the fabric section.

[Stunke]

Cloth tape-measures are also great because they are more flexible than the steel rulers. Oddly enough, danish carpentry deals a lot in inches but finding a tape measure with inches is close to impossible.
I have to use GW tape-measures :oops:
I'd rather not because I think they are expensive and rubbish to boot, but I have no other choice.

[gunslinger]

Actually the dollar store around here all have only inches :evil:

You pretty much have to go to Home Depot or a hardware store and still have issues finding them.

Byron

looks like you have a solution then. go there.. or go to any hardware store. it can't really be that hard. especially in OHIO.. kmart, walmart, target, all have that stuff.

or jsut get a wooden dowel and mark it off in inches and cut it to frequently used lengths. i do this in 40k all the time.. ingenuity (necessity) sometimes is the mother of invention..

as to your prior post.. not agreeing with me is a common thing amongst many.. it's ok.. we all have opinions and through sharing counter opinions we find what is best.. alienating distributors is only easy if the distributor is easily offended.. and quite frankly way too many of them get their panties up in a knot because they aren't mollycoddled.. that's the way i see it.. agree or not.. meh..

[Chopa]

@ Chopa: got the exact same problem with the Curwen boxest. And yeah, we had it confirmed it is bone doc 1 (ugh).


Well I guess Ill have to think of some good conversion by the time the box comes out then


Im just glad I got two good cloth tape measures from the Dept. of Border Patrol
(Career fair in AZ)

that and the Rezolution Shadow war box has one with both in it

[Rua Baineann]

I took my plastic, red GW measuring stick and white paint and put a mark every centimeter with the numbers laid out at every fifth, works great

[Anarch]

Im just glad I got two good cloth tape measures from the Dept. of Border Patrol
(Career fair in AZ)


Free i assume?

[Chopa]

Of course

Id also reccomend asking around forums for the Blue CM GW whippy sticks
I know they came with the BFG boxset you should be able to find em availible for cheap

[Rua Baineann]

It is rather funny that GW and urban war, both out of the UK, use inches. While Dark Age uses metric.

[DA_Grafter]

Thar because Metric gives you more flexibility... welcome to the 21st century LOL

[Anarch]

Cloth tape measures give the ultimate in flexability. :D

Actually I perfer cloth tape measures because they dont scratch up my minis during games.

[Pitfall]

The best place to find flexible tape measures with cm markings are at cloth/sewing stores. There, or check the crafts section of your local department store. I found a retactable-type at a local superstore (NOT WAL-MART!) with inches and cm for less than 2 bucks.

I used that for a demo I ran later that weekend, and within 15 minutes, some bonehead extended it too far, making it un-retractable. But, you can still use the tape!

[Wayne Rogers]

Another place for cheap measuring devices is at the Office supply store, or anywhere they sell school supplies. They have cheap plastic 6" rulers that have metric on one side.

[Anarch]

I used that for a demo I ran later that weekend, and within 15 minutes, some bonehead extended it too far, making it un-retractable. But, you can still use the tape!

Take the tape with the little round part at the end and smack the bonehead in the head a few times.... that will wake him up to how things work.

[DA_Grafter]

Yeah, always use the cloth type. I never use the metal ones anymore.

[gunslinger]

metal? gahh, i couldn't imagine.. oh wait.. all my self retractable ones are metal.. doh.

i don't like cloth ones as they tend to not keep the correct distance. you really only hose yourself if you don't stretch it.. and if you stretch it too much, well, then you over measure.

i still like my use of dowels.. i have them marked with 18" down to 2" in 1 inch increments and i have a 6" dowel, an 8" dowel etc.. i am contemplating doing one in centimeters now as well

[Goliath]

Cloth tape measures give the ultimate in flexability. :D

So does dating a Yoga instructor, but that's another story.

[Stunke]

That will be Pr0fanes department :shock:

[DA_Demorney]

bought me two 5 metre retractable ones ... now I just need a table that size :shock:

[Pr0fane]

Actually, it's a Pilates instructor...and hell yeah..she is hyper flexible!

[Chopa]

As a side note the new AT-43 boxed set comes with a tape measure that should (dont quote me on this) have cm on it, plus I think there was a confrontation set that had a tape measure in it

just thought Id bring that up

[Kyle]

I was going to give GW credit for the complete game in a box thing until I saw that they were rereleasing Glactica 25 on themniniaturespage. Then I remebered that Heritage USA out of Texas came up with the idea years before GW and did it better!

Yeah I'm showing my age here but I remeber the Paint-n-Play sets. They came with really simple rules, maybee a dozen miniatures, dice, a crappy brush that was virtually unusable, and those really bad water based paints like you get in cheap hobby sets where you paint ceramics.

The sets were about $20 which was a lot for me at the time but doable. The box sets had painted minis and neat terrain on the cover. Looking back practically everyone now paints better than the cover art minis but at the time it was an insparation. I remeber trying to get my minis to look as good as the box.

The box http://www.mudpuppygames.com/MGhistory.html

[Rua Baineann]

Thanks for bringing the thread back, I don't think I could have handled too many more comments on tape measures. But, right you are. New players often want a complete set that they can just break out of a box and play with a friend. I mean, Chess doesn't come with just one set of pieces. Notice I said brand spankin new players

[bj]

Well I got my Skull pass today, and I have to say that the minatures are pure shite. I thought I was going to get one over on ole GW, bypass the rulebook get a couple of units out of the box set, use the heroes to add to my current O&G army. The goblins are too small, smaller than the excellent Brian Nelson ones, the terrain is passable, the troll is hideously bad sculpted, I would have been better off spending the $45 on the hardcover rulebook. Right now the only useful items out of the set is the mini rulebook and the templates, the red measuring sticks could probaly be used as a back scratcher or something. The Spider riders do look nice, but I'll reserve judgement until they have a coat of paint on them.

[Wayne Rogers]

Yea ..I saw the models earlier at my local GW store. I was NOT impressed. This was definitely not in the high-caliber vein of Battle for Macrage

[Pugwhan]

I think they are refering to marketing, smoke'n mirrors, not the actual product itself. It is a thought... all the other games do it.


If all the other games jumped off a cliff would Dark Age?

[Rua Baineann]

I think they are refering to marketing, smoke'n mirrors, not the actual product itself. It is a thought... all the other games do it.


If all the other games jumped off a cliff would Dark Age? There's a few games I wouldn't mind pushing off that cliff. Remember though we tend to look at miniatures gaming from an expert's point of view. I'm talking about brand new players that think clix minis look awesome. I's all about perspective

[witchfire]

Yea ..I saw the models earlier at my local GW store. I was NOT impressed. This was definitely not in the high-caliber vein of Battle for Macrage

the marines in tha set were nothing to brag about either


i only kept the ship's wreckage

[Osiris]

quote] I'm talking about brand new players that think clix minis look awesome. I's all about perspective[/quote]

I remember the Clix being first quoted to me as the anti-warhammer. All you needed was 15 minutes if that to learn the rules. From that no more painting a huge massive army to get started all you really needed was single started and a pair of boosters plus a rare character and *poof* you were ready to go.

I think DA has some of that charm as it doesn't require tonnes of models that need to be painted or various codexes & rule books that need to be memorised to play a single game.

Cheers.

Osiris

[Goliath]

All you needed was 15 minutes if that to learn the rules. From that no more painting a huge massive army to get started all you really needed was single started and a pair of boosters plus a rare character and *poof* you were ready to go.

What they forget to mention is that the models are collected randomly, so you may need to purchase more than a couple of boosters to get a decent force together. That was one of the things that put me off those collectable mini games.

[Stunke]

You can buy most models in singles on the internet now. The same argument about buying useless cards for Magic the gathering doesn't apply anymore either.
But I like the anti-warhammer analogy.
Quick to learn, inexpensive, no painting, consistent rules, and developing strategies.
:D

[dragonlady]

Well I got my Skull pass today, and I have to say that the minatures are pure shite. I thought I was going to get one over on ole GW, bypass the rulebook get a couple of units out of the box set, use the heroes to add to my current O&G army. The goblins are too small, smaller than the excellent Brian Nelson ones, the terrain is passable, the troll is hideously bad sculpted, I would have been better off spending the $45 on the hardcover rulebook. Right now the only useful items out of the set is the mini rulebook and the templates, the red measuring sticks could probaly be used as a back scratcher or something. The Spider riders do look nice, but I'll reserve judgement until they have a coat of paint on them.

Something was pointed out to me about the red measuring sticks: They are wrong on their measurements. I couldn't believe it, so I took one out and brought out my handy dandy trusty tape measure. The stick supposing to be 18" long was 1/4" off on the 18", its inch is "slightly" short!! It must have been a male manufacturere :twisted: (Sure honey its 8" long!).

As for the size of the night goblins, this was a publicized fact that GW is trying to scale back on the goblins, as "scale creep" had been making them too large!

[bj]

Well I shall not be getting rid of my gobbos on 'roids, the Brian Nelson sculpts are the best O&G sculpts that have come down the pike in a very long long time, the make the Kev Adams sculpts look like....well they look better than the classic Kev Adams sculpts. I did size them up and the size difference isn't that noticeable. Any rate I kept the Spider riders and rverything else in the box went to Punky for trading fodder.

[Osiris]

All you needed was 15 minutes if that to learn the rules. From that no more painting a huge massive army to get started all you really needed was single started and a pair of boosters plus a rare character and *poof* you were ready to go.

What they forget to mention is that the models are collected randomly, so you may need to purchase more than a couple of boosters to get a decent force together. That was one of the things that put me off those collectable mini games.

That was part of the blessing/hate factor of those games. Sometimes you open up three boosters and get three different uniques other times I"ve seen ppl drop $70 in cash and walk away with nothing but commons. It smacks a bit like playing the lottery.

Cheers,

Osiris