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  1. #1
    lycane's Avatar
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    Weekly Model Discussion: Mongo

    03MAR14
    Welcome to the Weekly Model Discussion!


    This week we will be discussing: MONGO!!

    I see this as the heavy hitter of Outcasts and definitely a force to reckon with. I'll admit that I don't have too much to say about this guy as I don't play Outcasts that much. So I'l let you guys drive the discussion!

    His stats:
    AP 3DEF 8
    ARM 18
    MOV 3
    PS 14
    HP 4

    [2] Über Blok AG#1 AS7 RF∞ PW 6x2 RN 0 MAL -
    •Brutal
    •ED(2)




    BRUTAL: The Parry special ability may not be used against this attack.


    EXTREME DAMAGE (ED)(x): (x) represents the amount of HP lost by a failed AR Save caused by this attack.


    FORTITUDE: When this model is reduced to 0 HP, it is not immediately killed and removed from play. If this model activates while at 0 HP it is killed and removed from play at the end of that activation.


    MASSIVE: This model cannot be Knocked Prone, Knocked Back, or Pulled by models with a smaller size.


    NEVER PANIC: This model may never gain Panic Counters.


    SHOCK WAVE (x) : This model may spend 1 AP to activate Shockwave. Shockwave affects all models within (x). All models gain a Stun Counter. All models two or more sizes smaller than the originating model are
    automatically Knocked Back. All models 1 size smaller are automatically Knocked Prone. When a model with a
    Stun Counter activates, it immediately loses 1 AP, and then the Stun Counter is removed. A model may only have
    1 Stun Counter at a time.


    TOUGH AS NAILS: This model does not lose an additional HP for rolling a critical failure on an AR Save.


    UBER BLOK STOPPER: This model always has Heavy Cover. This model grants Heavy Cover if it is between the target of an attack and the attacker.
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  2. #2
    lycane's Avatar
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    Nothing? Well from the looks of him he's pretty beefy and is a bargain at 160pts.

    Def 8 is a ruse as block stopper make him Def 4 against ranged before distance penalties.

    but the cherry on top is shockwave... such a good ability. The only problem I see is he dies really quickly - thankfully fortitude helps make a final stand when he does die.
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  3. #3
    Ahriman42's Avatar
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    Mongo is a monster set up to take out pretty much anything he comes across. ED (2) on both his attacks is HUGE, and makes him deadly against commanders and other big beefy deathstars. Shockwave allows him to deal with being swarmed by many smaller 1-hp models that might otherwise whittle him down.

    remember that he also functions as mobile heavy cover to his allies.

    Mongo's main weaknesses are the same as any big nasty deathstar; he's not particularly fast, and his size prevents him from maneuvering around dense battlefields. He can only be in one place at a time, and he's easy to hit, even with blok stopper. Plus, unlike the other big nasty monsters (like Howler, Numbskull, and Nightmare Juggernaut) he doesn't have regeneration, so its much easier to whittle him down over the course of the game.

    The best way to fight Mongo is to light him on fire. Acid and bleed is also nice. afflicting him with stun or paralytic poison is nice as well, as he's only got 3 AP. Just aknowledge that whatever deals him the killing blow is NOT going to survive his Fortitude turn.

  4. #4
    Ahriman42's Avatar
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    Long and the short of it is, if you're playing outcasts, and not playing Slavers, at 750 points or more, there is NO EXCUSE to not field mongo. Even at 500, fielding mongo is a solid choice.

  5. #5
    Never Knows Best's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycane View Post
    Def 8 is a ruse as block stopper make him Def 4 against ranged before distance penalties.
    I think the exact opposite, actually. Mongo was one of the most recent model "fixes," as admittedly he was a little too good for the points. Now however... 8 defense is a tad on the ridiculous side. 4 defense AFTER heavy cover?! None of my opponents seem to mind.

    His Horrible Defense
    This creates some problems:
    1. Placing him into melee can be problematic since his is quite literally one of the easiest melee targets to hit. 18 armor is nice - as good as a Banes...- but he still doesn't last long when the enemy throws everything and the kitchen sink at him.
    2. His Uber Blok stopper isn't terribly helpful to him, especially against a model with Crack Shot, which means its usefulness instead needs to be employed for the benefit of friendly models behind him - again leaving him in the front or out in the open.
    3. The conditions of this heavy cover are "if he is between the target of an attack and the attacker" which means care has to be taken that your enemy doesn't use him as heavy cover against you!

    One conclusion could be that, after some higher level play gaming-meta, that Mongo essentially is just a giant distraction... offering a tempting target and allowing your little models to scamper freely behind him.

    His Arsenal
    2 Attack, Brutal, ED(2) @ AS:7, PW:6x2... another reason he might be a tempting target is a strategy I learned when I started playing the original Starcraft: Part of the Strategy dictates that if there was a unit like the Firebat (Starcraft model) that dies relatively easily but dished out a high amount of damage, focus on them.

    Mongo has the potential for 12 points of damage in an activation and could kill most models in an activation or two if he's allowed to get into range. He's also not slow, 3x3. The counter to this? As with most higher cost models, send in 1 HP models one at a time if you can, effectively wasting his AP.

    Shockwave on the other hand is one of the better abilities in the game. This means those 1 HP models are really only going to drain 1 AP from him as he knocks them back (send in Large models or bigger). AOE Stun, AOE KP and KB, it's pretty devastating.

    Again though, the game effect is contrary to what you might think. Don't think that you are actually going to pull off this move against a number of enemy models. Instead, realize that what this actually does is force your opponent to move around him and stay spread out.

    A Quick Trick with Fortitude
    On the ability "Regeneration" you will notice that a model that is first reduced to 0 HP get's a dying counter and is not "killed," however...
    If a model with a Dying Counter ever loses HP, that model is killed.
    You will notice there is no such clause on Fortitude.

    Instead, Fortitude has 2 parts.

    Part 1: When this model is reduced to 0 HP, it is not immediately killed and removed from play.

    Part 2: If this model activates while at 0 HP it is killed and removed from play at the end of that activation.

    I'm thinking this might just be an oversight but here's what this means for games I've played.

    Step 1: My enemy reduces Mongo to 0 HP.
    Step 2: As nothing further can be done to the not-yet-killed Mongo, my enemy must otherwise disengage from him and pursue other quarry.
    Step 3: Before Mongo activates, I use Fixer to heal him.

    Now, Mongo can live to die another day - again bringing him back and resetting the Fortitude-cycle. I know he can only be healed once, but his state of dying invulnerability has made the difference a number of times - it's quite useful.

    Mongo as a Comparison to other models
    By comparison, Mongo is still one of the rougher, higher tier models.

    Raze: For 165 points Raze gets 5 HP and Fortitude as well as Cause Panic and slightly higher defense. The trade of is he only makes 1 attack per AP. Even if that attack does have Decapitate, Mongo can take Raze in a fight.

    Heretic's Johann: He weighs in at 175 points, 2 attacks now but no ED. He might stand a slightly better chance than Raze, his defense is quite a bit better although no multiplier on his attack means hits only have a 50% chance of doing damage. Still he has Parry and a whole lot of things that make the people around him better - Mongo not having command kind of hurts sometimes. Mongo is slightly easier to buy atm.

    The Saints: Of all the Saints, Luke and John have a decent chance of slowing him down. Template weapons ignore cover and, although Luke can't knock him down, smoke means advantage Saints. Mary could get some people in base contact with Mongo - probably the exact opposite thing you really want to do - and Mark... well he wouldn't have much of a hope aside from taking a shot and moving away 9"... essentially kiting Mongo. 130 point solutions to a 160 point problem.

    Numbskull: Here is a model I feel is clearly better for 160 points. 6 HP and regeneration. Again, no ED (2), same crappy defense with only a regular Blok Stopper to help and in a 1on1 fight Mongo would win yet Numbskull will shrug off the accumulated damage of other enemy models much better. Instead of Mongo's 1 Get-out-of-Jail-Free Card, Numbskull gets 1 HP every round you fail to put him down.

    The Core: Ah yes, the Core. The Core really don't have an equivalent model to Mongo. What's worse, they don't really have a good solution for him either. Even Centurion/Legionnaires shielded can't really stand up that long against him, and most of the Core models are painfully in that 2 HP range. My best solution thus far is to have the lot of them carry Flamethrowers for their upgrades. IE if you want to beat the Core... field Mongo.

  6. #6

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    Mongo is a very solid model that can really dish out the dmg but he is balanced by his movement and he has a few weakness that my opponent's have found that work great against him.
    Throwing cheap low def models at him like auto bots etc
    The best one is anything with para poison on their weapons ,works great since it gets around fort.

    mongo is a 160 point target and if ppl dont take him out fast will really wreck anything in the game.

    The healing trick is ok but he can only be healed once a game and everyone around here knows to target the fixer asap.

    I really love mongo and in most games he will do something but I have found more flexibility in lists without him lately.
    Last edited by beakerkd; 03-05-2014 at 10:30 AM.
    When does the painting end..........

  7. #7

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    I am pretty sure the wording on Fortitude is not an oversight, it is supposed to work like that.

  8. #8
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    Give me a minute while I compose myself. Never, in case you didn't see, Mongo won me the immortal. It is easily one of the best units in the game. Here's why:

    AP 3 - This is low, but if he had 4 he would need to be 250+ points because of his attack groups and the extra AP would be insane
    DEF 8 - He has on a chain and a slab of concrete. Def 8 is bad, you will get hit, but not from ranged. Scuts are built to harass ranged units for you and people will often try to either 1 flee mongo or 2 overcommit units to him. More in a minute.
    ARM 18 - Makes up for your poor Def. you can reliably shrug off pow 6 and below hits.
    MOV 3 - He's slow. I get it. Really it's his only downside.
    PS 14 - Smart bugger. 70% of the time he's fine.
    HP 4 - You know those HP per PV people out there. Eat your heart out. He has 4 HP and comes back from the dead. C'mon, do math, tell me how good this guy is. No really stop. He's good, I don't need a formula to see he has high HP and a low PV for the destruction he brings - see below...

    [2] Über Blok AG#1 AS7 RF∞ PW 6x2 RN 0 MAL -
    •Brutal
    •ED(2)

    - So he gets 2 swings per AP, with AS 7, so even on def 3 models he'll hit 50% (def 2 on the charge also 50%), pow 6x2 That by 2 right there means he is reliably getting through AR 18, it's brutal so sorry Johann and pesky brats who parry - you are dead, and ED so whatever I hit is taking 2 to 4 wounds PER AP. I laugh at brood and their terrible 1 hp regen, all I need is 2 HP and I'll break its face.

    BRUTAL: No parry = I kill Fiora every time... I hate Fiora. But MONGO LONGS FOR A WORTHY OPPONENT.

    EXTREME DAMAGE (ED)(x): 2 wounds per hit makes my damage output insaneeeeeeee

    FORTITUDE: See if Mongo is at say 1 HP, activate him, smash stuff, let him die and you get another 3 ap worth of smashing after. Or say he didn't act and that sneaky Cesspool got to him, well MONGO DOESN'T DIE, he gets 3 ap to go and kill as much as he can before he dies. Your argument against this is that he.... I don't know. What are you actually saying? This ability is NEARLY broken, the wording as it reads now stops him from being double killed too. Your argument is now rejected and mongo is awesome.

    MASSIVE: You know how much stuff annoys me when I get KP, pushed or pulled? It never annoys me because that stuff ain't happening to mongo.

    NEVER PANIC: Why would he?

    SHOCK WAVE (x) : Emergency slave eject button

    TOUGH AS NAILS: Roll a 20. Don't care.

    UBER BLOK STOPPER: This model always has Heavy Cover. lowering his abysmal DEF vs. ranged, also if your friends shoot him and get through the - from the stopper, the - to the AS from range, they are either close and you can charge and kill them, or a saint mark who you should focus on killing just like he is focusing on you.


    Seriously, if you think mongo is bad, please pm me, I need to hear this. It's like saying brood regen is good because regen auto 1 is 100% where old regen was 50/50.... You know there was regen 2, 3, 4...

    Crap, brood.

    Mongo is the best.
    A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of a sheep.

    #Ignore

  9. #9
    Never Knows Best's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoj View Post
    Give me a minute while I compose myself. Never, in case you didn't see, Mongo won me the immortal. It is easily one of the best units in the game.
    I noticed.

    It's actually one of the main reasons I even picked up the Outcast, as they seemed like a fun and challenging faction I could lend to a friend and play against.

    I was under the impression the Mongo you won with was the pre-nerf version (125 points vs. 160; 6 def vs. 8 ). He is still an awesome model and you will note I said very little against him.

    If anything, I think going from 6 to 8 defense was a little harsh. Even with the -4 Uber Blok stopper, ranged defense is only cut down to an effective 4... about average for ranged. Just about any melee attack has a decent chance to hit him. Since there's a lot of good things he does, Mongo's high defense isn't a huge deal; I do find the high defense - U.B.S. doesn't benefit him a ton (IE I might rather have a 4 def model without U.B.S.) but rather the models behind him. For the Brutes and Mongo, reducing the Def -1 each would be kind of nice.

    What I've noticed when I play him is the strategy is to send single units in and make sure to keep most everything else out of his range... or stand back and shoot at him (often with Crack Shot). He plays a big "psychological" part in my strategy - taunting my opponent to focus on him rather than on whatever else I'm doing - but usually he doesn't get a chance to do much physically.

    Because of this, instead of playing a lot with Mongo, lately I've been switching to Hoj or, if I want to run a slaver list, Slavemaster. For a decent slaver list I really need them to release more Victimize models... The Unbound would be great.

  10. #10
    Hoj's Avatar
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    I actually can't and won't disagree with you there. It's a lot easier to flame about brutes and how they aren't worth the points which was noted above as they aren't great.

    I still love you because you use a hoj.

    I only go nuts on the forum to show Mr. Black that I care and his abuse on the brood will not be tolerated. That and I hate Junkers. Also hate K-kani as a whole. Also think Fire Caste OP. Did you know that instead of Junkers you could take Banes or Strikes? Unreal! Also did you know that instead of taking brood you can take CORE (I use them as the example as they have massive cool looking models but actually have some very effective units / choices)
    A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of a sheep.

    #Ignore

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