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  1. #1
    lycane's Avatar
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    Weekly Model Discussion: Forsaken Unique models - Bonus discussion Leaders!

    No i'm not doing this to stir up Hoj - even though it is fun to watch.


    This week I would like to see what people think about Junkers and maybe all the other "special" units out there that are unique to Saints.

    Do you use these unique models with the saints?

    Would some models shine more with maybe a Leader granting a field order or more interaction between unique models?


    So I wont list the stats - they are in the Download section.

    But the unique models only available for specific Saints are:

    Saint Mark: Shades, Junkers, Reaver, Hephzibah

    Saint John: Haniel, Faithful, Banger, Deathstryke

    Saint Mary: Clergy Ann, Flense, Contradiction, Judah

    Saint Luke: Arsenal, Stinger, Sister of Wrath, Marionette

    I'll start off with mirroring Hoj - junkers are the meh but I wouldnt over look that they are some of the cheapest ED out there. Only 2HP is a problem for Junkers but Forsaken have access to medics and the sister of compassion.

    I would like to see a leader for Junkers though and this is where a field order elusive could help them survive getting shot up before they engage or maybe something nastier like berserk or fortitude...

    Shades are also a neat model that I would like to see a Character Shade with a heavy crossbow...

    I only play Saint Mark so cant comment on the rest and thats where you come in. so take it away!
    Last edited by lycane; 04-09-2014 at 07:14 PM.
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  2. #2
    Quick note: Junkers are 2HP, not 1. They even have Tough As Nails.

  3. #3
    Mr. Black's Avatar
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    My contribution to this discussion is that Junkers have 2 HP, not 1.

  4. #4
    lycane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Black View Post
    My contribution to this discussion is that Junkers have 2 HP, not 1.
    too many windows open - good catch it's like you know your stuff or something

    I bring this up as a topic because some current players like the uniqueness of the Saint lists but feel that maybe some more models should be added as most of the things that make then different is just 1-2 models...

    You probably have future sight for this type of thread - would some new uniques to the existing Saint forces be something? or just the 4 for each be it?
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  5. #5
    lycane's Avatar
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    I'll also add that the Saint Mark and Mary lists I run into a lot field mostly generic forsaken: Banes + leader, Fire storms + Leader, ravage + Leader, Coil + Leader...

    both players see the utility in some of the unique models but maybe it's just taste or stick with what they know?

    I personally only really see Luke utilizing his unique models the most - only due to the smoke and envirofilters for the stingers and Arsenels and the sisters of Wrath are just fun
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  6. #6
    Hoj's Avatar
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    My Opinions:

    St. Mark: Has God's Finger and Jigsaw Hand of DOOOMMMMMM. Best saint. Easily. High AS, capable in CC and range "low" Armor but his support troops fill needed forsaken voids. Shades are cheap infiltration units, Hez actually hits hard and lays down some nice poison, Junkers... OK I don't HATE them any more, in fact, they are now OK in my book, but they must be run in tandum with a sister of compassion and a medic. They become 4 WD ED2 beasts w/ tough as nails. My only issue is that ties up a lot of points, but hey if you take Mark, medic, sister, weaponsmith are 3 (almost) auto-includes - at least for me. These 3 are probably the best Forsaken has to offer (whirlwind is in there too but not auto-include in Mark). So with shades, Hez, and the bubble wrap Junkers (if you can fit a ravage for smoke that's great too) is probably the best Saint specific supporting cast. (Mark A+ / Mark's Troops A)

    John: He is a tank and the death disk is nasty at range as well. Unlike Mark's supporting cast which I gave an A, John has possibly the worst specific support troops. Ok so you got john which means a medic and sister should be here too, probably a whirlwind because you need some speed... Haniels - you are the new Junker. You have 1 wd a passable AS, weak pow, limited range, bad AR, bad DF, congrats, you are the worst of the forsaken troops. ALL HAIL HANIELS DESTROYERS OF THE 9 YEAR STIGMA THAT JUNKERS WERE THE WORST. Faithful are slow like John, you can deal with some things being slow but John + them... Banes are a cheaper faster similar alternative. Deathstryke, you cost 100 points have a good AS, RoF 2 a weak pow and if you are in CC and don't kill immediately, HEADBUTTTTTTTT - you are a waste of 100 points, you are outdone by the 95 point faster, better stat line warwind. No reason to take this guy. Same goes for you banger... (John A / John's Troops F, if there was a worse score, you earned it...)

    Mary: Best Special abilities of all the saints, just keep getting better per wounds you take, plus that spray/stream can net you 10 inches of high AS template goodness. Throw in a sister of comp and a medic and you're on a good start. Support troop wise Contradiction and Judah both have roles in her list, the templates, command, etc... They are a value add in, cleregy ann has a good pistol range and as that can get buffed, flense... eh ok you're bad... not sure if you or haniel is worse... you both fill the role of useless point sinks that look cool on paper and the models look nice, but... you're bad... way to bring down Mary's troops brahs. (Mary A / Mary's Troops a w/o Flense / B- with Flense)

    Luke: You have 1 form FARRRRR superior than the other. The grenade / shotgun goodness of high threat range tons of KP and your model looks the best in the entire forsaken line. Your spear form just doesn't do it for me. You get 1 good arc attack... RoF 1. Luke is not bad at all, but just gun luke > spear luke. ::cough pick a stance like john picks hammer or shield or just flat 2 ap switch form cough:: I'm still not a fan of relying on smoke to protect high PV troops like arsenal / stinger. But with that said, throw in a medic and a sister, and you now have 3 wound mini lukes all on your board with shotgun and grenade launcher goodies. There PV is high, they only have 1 wd, BUT with support these guys are good and would be able to lay down some good firepower. Sister of Wrath / Mari would be if you took luke on a different path with more close combat, throw in strikes, banes, etc... It seems they WANT you to not take arsenals and focus more on a combat oriented list... So it's kind of more pick your playstyle, don't mix. (Luke Gun Form A / Spear Form C / Lukes Troops B)

    General Forsaken: Warwind, Strikes, Weaponsmith, Sister of Compassion, Banes, & Medic all get Solid As from me

    Ravages, coils, diskmaster (has great potential but can get locked in combat easily) are all great options as well

    Firestorms, ok maybe take 1... 2 max... but can be a point sink and easily taken out.

    Whatever I missed, there's probably a reason for it either too situational or everything mentioned above just does the job better...

    Except you Haniel / Flense... You guys are terrible. As soon as I decide who's worse. I'll make a thread about you. I truly hate you both (probably hate Haniels more as I sometimes play John.... But I won't descriminate, they're both terrible options)

    I want to give a big congrats on Junkers on their move from worst unit in the game to "Situational Status" It was 2005, it's been a long time, congrats on not being dog $%!# any more. You earned it.

    Also, no one stirs me up, but let's not just blanketly disagree with me because I hurt your feelings and I'm a loud and brash individual when discussing a game I've known since it was a single .pdf file back in 2005. I'm good, I get frustrated and when people stomp their feet I just talk louder. It's a character flaw. I'm not working on it. I won't change. If you don't agree with me, (like both Never and ly) prove your point to me and I'll listen to it and give credit where credit is due. You 2 guys are really smart with the game and rules. We may not always agree, but you guys have good points.

    *All ratings, use of the term auto-include, calling things unplayable are all in fact just my opinion. Feel free to disagree, as you are entitled to YOUR opinion just as I am entitled to mine.
    Last edited by Hoj; 04-09-2014 at 09:57 PM.
    A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of a sheep.

    #Ignore

  7. #7
    Hoj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycane View Post
    I'll also add that the Saint Mark and Mary lists I run into a lot field mostly generic forsaken: Banes + leader, Fire storms + Leader, ravage + Leader, Coil + Leader...

    both players see the utility in some of the unique models but maybe it's just taste or stick with what they know?

    I personally only really see Luke utilizing his unique models the most - only due to the smoke and envirofilters for the stingers and Arsenels and the sisters of Wrath are just fun
    My first Immortal list was Mark, 2 or 3 firestorms, coil, coil leader, medic, weaponsmith, warwind, bounty hunter (RIP), Deathstroke (RIP - I think that was her name), and sister of compassion. It wasn't until the "new" scenarios that I ever considered Mark's specific troops either, but shades, Hez are good and ::shudders:: I can see why you'd take a junker or 2.
    A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of a sheep.

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  8. #8
    Also, happy to go through and give thoughts. I'll start with Saint Mark's, since that's what you play too, and I've had some experience with him.

    Shades are terribly underrated in my opinion. They are just really solid at one job, and are low enough points to never invalidate them. Also, they sort of have a leader in Reaver/Hepzibah, the latter of which especially works well, since she can provide a punishing retaliatory charge against anyone who tries to get to the Shades, along with providing some pretty decent ranged power of her own.

    Junkers are not as bad as they are sometimes made out to be, but they aren't front line troops. What they are are an absolutely amazing counter-charge unit, capable of wiping out a wide variety of enemy shock troops. Now, that wouldn't be enough, except that they also get to do this in a sub-faction with some seriously excellent ranged firepower, giving you to force the confrontation on your own terms against most opposing lists.



    Saint John's:

    Faithful are fantastically hard hitting troops. I generally find that I would always rather take a Faithful over a pair of Banes at similar points. With a Sister of Compassion for support these guys are a tremendous brick wall, that can hold most anything they are pointed at. Again, I like to point out that with slower armies or models the key is forcing the confrontation. There are just fairly few models that these guys can't whittle down pretty easily. Be aware of Poison and Bleed effects, as those are easy ways around the resilience of the Faithful.

    Haniels have always been good to me. The get compared to other troop types a lot, and I always think that this is a mistake. They are specialists who answer a variety of situations. They can spray down mobs of low-armor enemies, and crack high armor as well as Coils, and they can do these things from further away and with higher accuracy than other Forsaken options. They work well independently or squad linked, and deal with terrain issues well due to the increased movement that Quick Draw provides.

    Banger/Deathstryke is still a bit of a puzzle to me. I have never found Banger to be quite good enough, and Deathstryke, while he definitely can lay down the hurt, is a model that I think I'm always a little too timid with. It bears reminding that he has the ability to charge and lay down a ton of fire with Proximity Strike and Point Blank, which is probably the correct course of action a non-zero percentage of the time. Much like Haniels, he absolutely excels at wiping out large groups of small guys, which can be really important vs. Brood armies with lots of Puds or Broodlings, since he has the ability to do two wounds at once over an area. Whether he is a better investment than a couple of Firestorms or a Ravage Leader is something I'm still testing. He might just need the right support, and that's what I need to figure out.



    I'll write up ideas on Saint Mary and Saint Luke later, since I have had much less experience there, and want to take a little more time to think about it.

    In the meantime, Mr. Black wrote a dang good tactics article on Saint Luke a while ago, here. The stats are out of date, but since they've all just gotten better since then, if anything the tactica is more or less just as valid.

  9. #9
    Hoj's Avatar
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    Now to analyze the Haniel and the Flense, which wins the most useless spot... So I read up on flense. It's like a different type of junker but with a 3 attack group option and only a RoF 1 for the ED attack group... So it's like having a Junker / Strike combined almost with a little less survivability... So if you have a medic and sister of compassion babysitting them, they are OK. I apologize Flense, you are OK (would be better at 2 wd) but you're passable as it goes with a different saint. I eat the crow. Flense is not rubbish.

    Up 1st, Haniel vs Coil:
    PVs H = 65 C = 45 (Coil win)
    APs Both 3 (Tie)
    Def H = 4 C = 7 (Haniel win)
    Arm H = 16 C = 15 (Haniel Win)
    Move Both 3 (Tie)
    PS H = 14 C = 12 (Haniel win)
    HP Both 1 (Tie)

    Close Combat: Coil = AS 5 Pow 3 KP 6 / Haniel AS 6 Pow 4... Haniel gets +1 pow and as, but KP is kinda good, even if it's at a 30% chance... They would serve different roles in combat, neither should be there, but if I was stuck I'd take the 30% KP over the +1 pow/as, that's just me though... (Advantage Coils)

    Range: Haniel has 2 shot options, the gun is RoF 1 so it's pick your type, AS 7 and a spray (6.4 inches) at pow 2x2 and an 8 inch 6x2 Shot. Coils on the other hand have 1 shot option also RoF 1, AS 6 Range 12 pow 6x2 - so you get the same AS and Pow just with 4 more inches of range. Both guns malfunction on 19 (10% chance)... So I'm going to call this a tie for a few reasons, the extra range for characters you want OUT of close combat is great, it would take someone an extra 1 or 2 ap to reach a coil opposed to haniel. Haniel does have the advantage of a spray attack though so it is worth it in certain situations, but at a low pow and people spreading out more due to squad linking rules it doesn't earn the edge to give it a win. (Tie)

    Abilities: Haniel has quick draw making him more mobile and able to aim/shoot for 1 ap. Average coils have squat so haniel wins this as a no contest.

    Now if you run down the list the Haniel appears to be the slightly better option right? Maybe. Here's why. You HAVE to play John. Coils can be thrown in any saint or general Forsaken. Also Coils have 1 HUGE advantage outside of their cheap nature... The Leaders are 1 per 500 points. Now Haniels don't get a leader, maybe this is part of the problem... But since coil LEADERS are 1 per 500, you can take 2 @ 750. What does this give you? 60 PV (still less then Haniel) You get Crack shot on coils (ignore light cover / make heavy light) the ranged AS matches the haniel at 7, def goes from 7 on a normal coil to a 6 on the leader, and the PS gets bumped to 14.

    It is no way a convincing win to take say 2 coil leaders over 2 haniels. But it is cheaper and they are COMPARABLE. I find coils are better just for the extra 4 inches of range (on a ranged based attacking unit) and the oh $%!^ KP chance.

    Optimal situation, I'd recommend Ravages over coils, haniels and coil leaders. They are in that same 75 point window and have better attacks, wounds, KP, fire, cauterize, smoke, blah blah blah... Throw in a leader and they match the haniel w/ quick draw.

    My conclusion would be coils provide SLIGHTLY more value then haniels (better range and PV). I'm sure some would disagree with me but, I've just laid out my points in a very "me" oriented way, basically it's how I decide what I'm taking. Other people think differently, that's cool.

    OK. Good Talk guys...

    Sorry Flense, you're NOT THAT BAD.
    A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of a sheep.

    #Ignore

  10. #10
    But since coil LEADERS are 1 per 500, you can take 2 @ 750.
    Doesn't work this way anymore. You would have to have 1000pts to take two according to the rulebook.

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