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  1. #1
    Hoj's Avatar
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    Smokers are Jokers... St. Luke with his head in the clouds

    So I've seen enough of the new releases to say I 100% hate St. Luke. Not because he's good, bad, whatever, it's just the potential heals and smoke. It just seems annoying and like outright cheese.

    Here's a full on crazy Luke nonsense list I expect to see:

    Luke (I don't care what form, I pop smoke regardless, really, even spear form, because even though I left my grenade launcher home, I still packed my smoke grenades) - 130 PV

    Medic - 55

    Sister of Compassion - 70

    Zuriel (Luke's new toy that SURPRISE pops smoke, heals, and gives immaculate maintenance, basically replacing a weaponsmith/ravage/medic/lol whatever all for the cost of... ) - 100 PV

    Arsenal x3 - 225 PV (because why not add 6 more smoke clouds a turn)

    Stinger x1 - 65 PV (because spears pop smoke)

    Militia x3 - 90 PV (Because we need more grenades, BL, activations, whatever)

    Layering of clouds makes this (almost) entire list sitting at an effective 0 def. You remember old Johann? This is old Johann with ranged firepower, tons of KP, 3 healers, and ED on prone... Hope your army has envirofilters.

    Since when is "pop smoke" AP free and can be done whenever? So, in theory I can move into base, pop smoke and attack you, and you attack me back at -4 now... it just seems too good to be "free" especially now since we have an entire army that just does it.

    Not saying this is unbeatable at all... Just... Annoying as heck.
    Last edited by Hoj; 08-06-2014 at 08:18 PM.
    A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of a sheep.

    #Ignore

  2. #2

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    Hey don't give away my list


    but to be fair a lot of list I have seen already take 2 healers and a weaponsmith so now I will just take a Sister and Zuriel so I will have point to play with.
    When does the painting end..........

  3. #3
    Never Knows Best's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoj View Post
    Zuriel...
    Just saw the stats on this guy... ouch.

    I will say that in the hands of the unskilled, Luke doesn't scare me much. Not sure I want to meet Luke in the hands of Hoj or Beak though...

    Even regular Forsaken can be annoying, with the inclusion of a Ravage or two the Forsaken can create a huge edge of controlling a certain area of the field and Luke is all the more annoying.

    Obvious counters to smoke includes lists that have high Enviro Filters/template weapons. I'll even take Crack Shot at a -2. So Kukulkani is your best option, in that just about every model has one or the other (or both) or our favorite Fire Caste, as ST/SP ignores cover and to lesser effect the Outcast who have a decent number of Crack Shot models. Leaving the Brood (surprise!) the obvious losers in the group (so we need a Slimy AND Enviro Filters Bio Gen...).

    Otherwise, I find all Forsaken lists tend to have few HP/models for their point group. Target the healers and drop them quick and everything else falls apart pretty quick.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoj View Post
    Forsaken heals better then brood.
    Medic
    Sister
    Zuriel
    Archangel with spray heal

    Forsaken with luke, ravages, zuriel, stingers, arsenals can easily put down 12+ clouds a turn.

    As they say in taken... Good luck, but never you pointed out good hard counters.

    Envirofilters, sp/st, and K3 in general. Agree on all fronts.

    So I've been looking at the game for some time now and the Forsaken and Brood both interest me. I've read over the rulebook and the cards and the forum debates as well. That being said, some questions:

    You've said several times now that Forsaken heal better than Brood. Is there something I'm missing here? You keep referencing models with Hang In There Boys/Healing Mechanic... Something every single Brood seems to have without outside help... And can use infinite amount of times, versus the limited amount Forsaken seem to be able to.

    Plus I'm not sure you've read the rules correctly because Medic, Sister, Zuriel... Fine there, but the Archangels and Zuriel are different subfactions from what I see, so they could never be together. Plus the Archangel's heal isnt a spray, that's his beam attack.

    In regards to Smoke, it seems powerful, but it goes away 50% of the time, so unless you're going to stack it on top of each other and hope for the best (and even so, that either means your clustering or just hoping for luck to be on your side) it doesnt seem reliable... Plus smoke only gives me -20% to hit. I can aim and cancel 10% of that, so in actuality you're only gaining 10% bonus.

    It also seems that the list you mentioned has the huge issue of having insanely expensive guys with 1 HP. Sure, you have a bunch of healers... But they cant be everywhere, and all I have to do is damage your guy twice in a row to outright kill him... Plus, since he's Dying, I get +2 to hit, 10%... so that 10% bonus from smoke goes to nothing.

    I think Luke looks cool, but the army also looks hugely glass cannon, even with 2-3 healers.

    I'm also not a fan of the Sister, since to effectively use her healing you're giving your guy -10% to hit permanently.

    Again I havent played Luke, or against him, just some theorycraft from looking at the cards and rules, if I'm missing something then please let me know.

  5. #5
    Ahriman42's Avatar
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    Zuriel heals only twice/game, and poping smoke still costs an AP, AND the archangels are Prevailer-only, and all that healing costs AP and requires being in base-to-base for much of it, AND fielding a lot of models who do nothing but heal, AND have crap defensive stats. Also, dying dudes are Prone AND dying, so +4 on attacks against them and +2 power; you can't heal a guy who's double-dead. Brood still heal "naturally" without spending AP, and heal over and over.

    I have a luke force. I like luke; he's the coolest saint aesthetically, and I actually like his character. And honestly, I might just use Zuriel so I can NOT field luke in low-PV games and still feel like I'm playing a luke force, and in high PV games I'll field spear-luke so Zuriel can lead the Arsenals.

    Maybe Luke forces should not be able to field Sister of Compassion; it makes sense fluff-wise. I don't field one anyways, because I think the model's a bit derpy.

    Its still a fragile low-model-count army, and all that support staff makes the whole army functionally even lower model-count. Also don't forget that a model can only be healed ONCE, generally. Everyone getting 1 extra HP isn't THAT broken.

    I'm shocked you're not worried about Saint-Mary Banespam. That's a lot of cheap armor-18 models with knockdown that suddenly hit a bit harder.

    Guns only have so much RoF. Eventually, Luke gets engaged in melee by multiple foes, a smoke template expires at the wrong time, and a bunch of incendiary grenade shots roll 19s and light everyone on fire.

    Luckily, I don't yet play at the highest echelons of the game, and can thus enjoy myself not spamming healer units.

  6. #6
    Never Knows Best's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    You've said several times now that Forsaken heal better than Brood. Is there something I'm missing here? You keep referencing models with Hang In There Boys/Healing Mechanic... Something every single Brood seems to have without outside help... And can use infinite amount of times, versus the limited amount Forsaken seem to be able to.
    I would probably agree, Brood healing > Forsaken healing overall... however, with Forsaken you can potentially heal multiple times in the same round, something that's simply impossible with the Brood. Both will die if you wound them past dying, both are susceptible to cauterize, the fact that all Brood get Regeneration is really what gives them their edge as well as their unique play style. Our group feels they are pretty strong and personally I find them a lot of fun to play.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Plus I'm not sure you've read the rules correctly because Medic, Sister, Zuriel... Fine there, but the Archangels and Zuriel are different subfactions from what I see, so they could never be together. Plus the Archangel's heal isnt a spray, that's his beam attack.
    All correct but if you play Prevailer or Luke the point is that you can have 3 healers. Luke will have Medic, Sister, and Zuriel; Prevailers get Medic, Sister and Raphael.

    When you consider that the Forsaken have insane armor (maybe not the Prevailers so much) but atypically low health-per-Point, 3 "different" heals potentially give models an extra 3 HP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    In regards to Smoke, it seems powerful, but it goes away 50% of the time, so unless you're going to stack it on top of each other and hope for the best (and even so, that either means your clustering or just hoping for luck to be on your side) it doesn't seem reliable...
    Keep in mind that it only potentially goes away at Lingering Effects, and can be cast again as soon as the beginning of the next round. I will say about 60-75% of the time, a veteran "smoke player" is going to have smoke down exactly where they want it the whole game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Plus smoke only gives me -20% to hit. I can aim and cancel 10% of that, so in actuality you're only gaining 10% bonus.
    I'll stop you right there. 20% is huge and aiming costs an extra AP, which is also huge. Not only that, it's cover for ranged AND melee; negatives to melee are exceptionally rare. Combine that with the fact that most of Luke's forces ignore it and it becomes a huge advantage.

    As a side note, it is likely never a good idea to aim INSTEAD of just firing twice. Chances are all most always better getting two attacks off vs. the +10%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    It also seems that the list you mentioned has the huge issue of having insanely expensive guys with 1 HP.
    Keep in mind that the cards in the Download section for Luke are not correct. Updated stats are here:
    http://www.dark-age.com/Downloads/Cards/Luke2.0.pdf

  7. #7
    Never, the update changed some things, but singers and arsenals are still 1hp.

  8. #8
    Never Knows Best's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoj View Post
    But are now slightly less insanely expensive and with access to 3 heals each, that 1wd stat with almost always having an effective def of 0 (assuming in a cloud) & 18 arm, it's a justified expense.
    Right, I was just double checking that he knew... they are 5-15 points less expensive, still 1 HP.

  9. #9
    Never Knows Best's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoj View Post
    Also for pop smoke... The rule book states no cost, Black, confirm if it's free, and if it is free please consider making it 1 ap again. 12+ clouds a turn for free = crazy
    Also, real quick this was confirmed in a post: Pop Smoke costs 1 AP.

    It's also on my player-made FAQ that's posted here:
    http://dark-age.com/showthread.php?1...AQ-rough-draft

    The FAQ includes many, many official answers found on posts as well as some "duh" ones we determined.

  10. #10
    Ahriman42's Avatar
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    Would this theoretical problem be fixed by putting a hard limit on heals in a game, and still leave those healing models effective enough? It'd result in less book-keeping ("No, this guy's been healed by THIS person, but THIS person can still heal them, and THIS guy got healed...twice, by them and them, so now I need to get THIS person over there to heal one last time"). Screw that level of tracking; this game's got enough counters.

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