1. #1
    madvitale's Avatar
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    2015 Legal CORE lists

    Just wondering about the CORE rule that states;
    - For every 250 points in a CORE force it must contain at least 75 points of models with the MENIAL special ability.
    Does that mean that the 'at least 75 points' has to be within the 250 point total, or would the following list be legal for a < 300 point game;
    - a CHURGEON (100 pt)
    - a RECOVERY UNIT (100 pt)
    - a THUMPER (85 pt with Menial)

  2. #2
    Never Knows Best's Avatar
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    I believe it used to be rounded down and still is for every total 250 points, so yes that list should be legal. Although it's not something you'd have to worry about a lot since all tournament/"official" games are played at 250 point increments.

  3. #3
    madvitale's Avatar
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    I find that odd. Once the two 100 point models are chosen, there is no way that you can 'stuff' 75 points of 'Menial' models into the 50 points remaining to get to 250.
    Seems to me that the CORE player needs to demonstrate that the first 250 points of models has to have the 75 points of Menials in it. If not, then the list is bogus.

  4. #4
    Never Knows Best's Avatar
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    You misread me.

    And there are no "first" points in a list, you don't "draft" a list. If your Core list has the required amount of Menial per the point level, it's good to go.

    Points of List = Total Points of Menial Required to be in the list
    250 = 75
    300 = 75
    450 = 75
    500 = 150
    600 = 150
    etc.

    If you are playing a 300 point game, at least 75 points of your list has to be menial, IE the Thumper. In other words the list you provided would be legal as mentioned.

  5. #5
    madvitale's Avatar
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    Well, if that is really what is meant by that rule, it is not intuitive. If you can only provide 75 points of Menial for CORE up to 499 points, then those lists would be seriously overpowered, in my opinion.
    If the objective of the rule is to balance the list so that more lower point count models are fielded (and I would think that would be the intent of the rule....), that would make sense to me. But the way you are interpreting it allows many larger, more powerful models to be taken.
    Difficult to compete with at 300 points with a, say, basic Forsaken list that comes in the Starter box.
    I would have expected that the intent of the '250' rule was to be sure that more of the lower point models were put in play for balance.
    I would like to see what the 'official' line is from the designers.

  6. #6
    Never Knows Best's Avatar
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    Everyone has a right to ask for an official answer, so that's fine.

    I will touch on the "lower point" and "balance" concerns you have however. Thumper (85 pts), Pathfinder MkII (85 pts), Nexus (80 pts), Rend (80 pts), Pathfinder MkI (75 pts), Infiltrator (55 pts), Spartan Menial (40), Menial Bot (30) are all the "Menial" Models. As the average point value of a Core model is 75-80 points, you'll note a number of these are average point cost models.

    Also, Nexus, Thumper, Pathfinder, Spartan Menial and Menial Bot are among some of the best models you can possibly use in a list. Even if the requirement was to field MORE Menial models, to me that would just mean fielding more of my best models. In my opinion, the "Menial" restriction is a completely arbitrary way to make list building more complicated for a Core player. I like the challenge, but I don't find it is designed to "get me to field lower point models" or "limit the power of models I can use" so much as it just makes me use Menial models.

    Also, think about the wording you would like for the rule and whether it would make sense. You say a player would have to "prove" they could fit the Menial model in the first 250, right?

    So, in the above list, why couldn't it be:

    I pick the Thumper first, 85 points
    Then I pick the Recovery Unit
    The Recovery Unit and the Thumper both fit inside 250 points, 185 points total
    Bracket 1
    [1 Thumper: 85, 1 Recovery Unit: 100, 185 points total (<250)]

    Then I pick the Churgeon.
    Bracket 2
    [1 Churgeon: 100]

  7. #7
    madvitale's Avatar
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    This is somewhat futile, as the issue is whether the first 250 points are to be filled out or not.
    If they are, you cannot pick the Churgeon last, as you would have to pick 65 points of other models to get to 250 before anything else.
    If they are not, you can basically do what you want, and none of this matters, and the rule should just be 'pick 75 points of Menial for every list from 75 to 499 points, and 150 points of Menial for lists of 500 to 749, etc.'.

  8. #8
    McNs's Avatar
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    The rules say what they mean.

    Verbatim: "Foundation is Key: For every 250 points in a CORE force it must
    contain at least 75 points of models with the Menial
    special ability"

    So, literally, for every 250 points in a CORE force, at least 75 points of models must have the Menial special rule. That's it.

    When list building, check the following:

    1.) How many integer multiples of 250 are in my list, rounding down? E.g. - 500 has "2", 499 has "1".

    2.) Confirm my list has at least 75 points of models, per integer of 250 in the total points. So, as NKB pointed out above, you'd need 150 for a 500 point list and 75 points for 250-499 point list.

    You're inferring rules that don't exist, namely that items get added to a list in serial and there's some sort of "check" at every integer of 250 points. That's not in the rules and I can confirm that the way NKB describes the rule is how its been played in multiple Gencon MTI's.

    Also, I appreciate the passion, but I find the claim that this allows "overpowered" CORE lists to be dubious. CORE are thought to be relatively underpowered, or at least hard to use, by most of the player base when played correctly (the way NKB noted).

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